Is a mic preamp worth it?

[ecc83]

gotta hear it to believe it.

arguing about crappy cheap gear, versus extremely well made and designed expensive gear, is a fools errand.

But that's the point. Modern gear CAN be very cheap but it does not have to be crappy.

The fact is that when run inside their linear limits it seems no one can tell a competently designed pre amp costing $50 from one costing $500.

What is it do you think is in the latter amplifier that makes it so "good"?

Of course if you can demonstrate the differences with some peer reviewed .wavs, fine.

Dave.

 

[GONZO-X]

i guess you'll just have to rent some time in a professional studio, listen to the higher end gear available, and do that homework for yourself.
i already have.


but a lot of folks seem to think they can catch the same quality of sound with cheap gear at home, as the professionals do, and well, i'm just not hearing it.

 

[ecc83]

i guess you'll just have to rent some time in a professional studio, listen to the higher end gear available, and do that homework for yourself.
i already have.


but a lot of folks seem to think they can catch the same quality of sound with cheap gear at home, as the professionals do, and well, i'm just not hearing it.

Yes, that is the stock reply but you have not answered my questions.

Dave.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Yes, that is the stock reply but you have not answered my questions.

I was arguing with an "audiophile" recently in a hi-fi forum (yeah, I know...) and that's what he said too. I asked for a specific technical explanation why fancy wires and "isolation" products improve sound quality, and he told me I'll never understand until I spend enough time with truly high-end (read: expensive) gear. What's so funny is based on his photo and guessing his age, I have at least 20-30 years more experience with high quality audio than he does.

This is like the guys who, when asked a specific question, reply with links to a dozen 40-page articles full of graphs and math.

--Ethan

 

[GONZO-X]

this is why the pros that mix and engineer for a living, use a plethora of $500 preamps?

 

[PDP]

I was arguing with an "audiophile" recently in a hi-fi forum (yeah, I know...) and that's what he said too. I asked for a specific technical explanation why fancy wires and "isolation" products improve sound quality, and he told me I'll never understand until I spend enough time with truly high-end (read: expensive) gear. What's so funny is based on his photo and guessing his age, I have at least 20-30 years more experience with high quality audio than he does.

This is like the guys who, when asked a specific question, reply with links to a dozen 40-page articles full of graphs and math.

--Ethan

I'm confused, first your asking for a specific technical explanation, then your dissing the guy that gives you one with graphs and math?

I dont get it ?

 

[ecc83]

this is why the pros that mix and engineer for a living, use a plethora of $500 preamps?

You still avoid saying what it is in a $500 pre amp that makes it sound "better" than a well designed $50 one?

Certainly pros will use expensive pre amps. Such devices are vastly more rugged than the Behringers of this world. REALLY top end pres will have up to 80dB of gain but low noise. This takes very careful design and expensive techniques, mostly high current, low impedance circuitry and multiple gain devices and that costs. But most of the time you don't need anything like 80dB of gain especially these days with capacitor mics. Sometimes you need a very high input headroom capabilty, that takes careful doing and of course the abilty to drive long lines from a very low source impedance and up to high levels...

But, none of these highly desirable qualities make one iota of difference to the sound quality for "average" signals that neither require high gain nor vast overload capacity.

Many professional use the Behringer ADA8000 and within its limits it seems to produce very acceptable results. Then, many "pros" go through a desk and if said desk should be a Soundcraft the mic amps are virtually the same circuit.

Everything audiowise has caught up with pro gear. A $90 AI has a noise, response and distortion performance that the best tape machine* ever built cannot get close to. Why should mic amplifiers be any different?

*(yeah I know analogue only guys but THAT is another can of subjective invertebrates!)

Dave.

 

[PDP]

You still avoid saying what it is in a $500 pre amp that makes it sound "better" than a well designed $50 one?

Certainly pros will use expensive pre amps. Such devices are vastly more rugged than the Behringers of this world. REALLY top end pres will have up to 80dB of gain but low noise. This takes very careful design and expensive techniques, mostly high current, low impedance circuitry and multiple gain devices and that costs. But most of the time you don't need anything like 80dB of gain especially these days with capacitor mics. Sometimes you need a very high input headroom capabilty, that takes careful doing and of course the abilty to drive long lines from a very low source impedance and up to high levels...

But, none of these highly desirable qualities make one iota of difference to the sound quality for "average" signals that neither require high gain nor vast overload capacity.

Many professional use the Behringer ADA8000 and within its limits it seems to produce very acceptable results. Then, many "pros" go through a desk and if said desk should be a Soundcraft the mic amps are virtually the same circuit.

Everything audiowise has caught up with pro gear. A $90 AI has a noise, response and distortion performance that the best tape machine* ever built cannot get close to. Why should mic amplifiers be any different?

*(yeah I know analogue only guys but THAT is another can of subjective invertebrates!)

Dave.

You make a good point, its like saying if you only ever need to go 55mph why is the car that can do 170 better than one that only does 60. I dont have the ability to explain this, but maybe you can. When it comes to making mixes, there seems to be a clarity when you put all the tracks together, that just gets better when you use better gear.

People say "check 123" into 2 different mics and say "see the 100 dollar mic sounds as good as the one for a grand" but for some reason when you really put the gear to work, add alot of tracks (and yes loudness) the better gear does sound better.

Do you really think its just wishful thinking, or is there a reason?

 

[Bobbsy]

Do you really think its just wishful thinking, or is there a reason?

There's probably a big mix of reasons.

First off, yes, wishful thinking comes into it. Unless your mic (or pre amp or mixer or whatever) comparison is done as a blind test then the results are suspect. Even professional engineers are easily led to think a more expensive piece of gear sounds better. Ethan's excellent video of an AES presentation he organised goes into the detail of this and how an audio placebo effect is very real.

However, beyond that, there are lots of other reasons that may affect things. In no particular order:

The guys using the $1000 mic probably also have a studio with the acoustics designed professionally (and a lot of money spent). Studio acoustics make a huge difference to the final sound, certainly at least as much as the mic and pre amp and possibly more. This is why performers with the money to spend are know to fly thousands of miles to get a studio with a "sound" they like.

The expensive mics and pre amps aren't necessarily more accurate or clear than the cheap ones. In fact, they are often designed to add a specific colouration to the sound--but a colouration that's pleasing to the ear, at least on certain sources. Colouration is actually a form of distortion--but, just as a distorted electric guitar can sound great, so can a vocal mic/pre amp with the "right" colouration for a certain voice.

Following on directly from the above point, pro studios don't try to make a specific mic/pre amp combination do everything. They have a cupboard full of gear and can bring out the mic and pre amp they think is best for the job. Contrast this to the home studio who has to struggle to buy a single really good mic then wants to use it for everything.

Finally, don't underestimate the effect the experience and talent of the engineer can have on the quality.

This is not to say there aren't differences. If there weren't, the pro studios would be just as bad as the audiophools who think a $39,000 speaker cable improves their sound. However, there certainly is a law of diminishing returns on gear--you have to spend a lot more to get a fairly subtle difference--and, as ecc83 says, even then the basic internals may be the same with the differences in the ancillary parts of the circuit.

 

[JimmyS1969]

By the way, I respect good FOH engineers. Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

[miroslav]

You still avoid saying what it is in a $500 pre amp that makes it sound "better" than a well designed $50 one?

Certainly pros will use expensive pre amps. Such devices are vastly more rugged than the Behringers of this world. REALLY top end pres will have up to 80dB of gain but low noise. This takes very careful design and expensive techniques, mostly high current, low impedance circuitry and multiple gain devices and that costs. But most of the time you don't need anything like 80dB of gain especially these days with capacitor mics. Sometimes you need a very high input headroom capabilty, that takes careful doing and of course the abilty to drive long lines from a very low source impedance and up to high levels...

But, none of these highly desirable qualities make one iota of difference to the sound quality for "average" signals that neither require high gain nor vast overload capacity.

Many professional use the Behringer ADA8000 and within its limits it seems to produce very acceptable results. Then, many "pros" go through a desk and if said desk should be a Soundcraft the mic amps are virtually the same circuit.

Everything audiowise has caught up with pro gear. A $90 AI has a noise, response and distortion performance that the best tape machine* ever built cannot get close to. Why should mic amplifiers be any different?

*(yeah I know analogue only guys but THAT is another can of subjective invertebrates!)

Dave.

This makes me chuckle....

I mean, there is always some point where you can take a $50 piece of gear and put it up against a $500 piece...and you might "dial in" one spot or very narrow range where you can step back and say..."see, no difference"....
...but apart from the rather theoretical and somewhat "within its limits" caveats...9 times out 10 in most hands-on, throw-the-curve-balls-at-it studio SOPs, the very inexpensive, "made with home-rec in mind" gear will just wet itself and end up standing in the corner of the studio.
It's only on home-rec forums that the value of really great, high-end audio gear, gets totally devalued to nothing, time and time again...and then the difference is always "overcome" with comments about talent and experience.

Sure....compared to newbs, pros know how to milk the most out of inexpensive, low-end gear....but few bother to, because really good gear, sounds really good, is easier to dial-in for a lot more than just a narrow, limited range of operation, lasts for a very long time, often appreciates in value....and....just puts a big smile on your face using it and having it.

I also love when gear is viewed only by the dollar value of its individual components.
I say....build those $50 state-of-the-art mics, and you will corner the market!
I'll be on eBay, buying up all the high-end expensive mics after they get devalued.........

 

[ecc83]

"I mean, there is always some point where you can take a $50 piece of gear and put it up against a $500 piece...and you might "dial in" one spot or very narrow range where you can step back and say..."see, no difference".."

Miroslav: That^ is not how it was done. The Sound on Sound tests were done with a variety of pre amps from cheap to very expensive. Every frorumite was invited to listen to first class quality .wav clips (of a robot piano) blind, then post in which pre amp went with which clip. Statistically the results were random.

There are many things in this world where "It stands to reason" or "Well everybody knows THAT!" So much so they made a very successful TV series based on it. You do get QI?

I have not trivialized high end pre amps nor the people that use them why do feel you have to do that to my argument? Had I the need, the money the ears and a £300,000 studio space sure, I would use top end gear (if only to impress the punters!) for the many reasons I have given but I know there is no magic in them, nor do you have to wipe them down with a snake oil impregnated rag at the of every day.

And +1 to the car analogy! My Proton gets me to Sainsburies and back just as easily and quickly as would an Enzo.

And thanks to Bobbsy, saved me some typing there!

Dave.

 

[hydroflare]

Don't forget:
1. Enclosure. Some of those high end enclosures are expensive, especially with milled panels. Your $50 pre-amp will not have one of these.
2. Power Supply. A good quality power supply with good thermal design and qualification testing. Your $50 pre-amp will not have this.
3. Warranty. It's a cost that is built into each unit.
4. After-sales support. A working studio needs as little downtime as possible when a unit becomes faulty. To be able to swap out the preamp with a new one whilst the faulty one is repaired in essential.

 

[Ainaudio]

If we are talking about voice and most lead instruments close recording - there are much more important parameters as linearity and low THD.
Polar pattern, proximity effect, size of diaphragm, frequency range, and distance, angle, room acoustics, etc.
Most case you do not need linear mic, and many case you even need to add some special distortion (exciter, tape drive, etc.).
It is somewhere similar to electric guitar recording, just not so strong
For example:
The most famous, expensive and real used in leading studios mic is Neumann U47.
It is not linear and has distortion enough.
The most popular studio mic - U87, and hundreds of others quality mics - the same.
No one stage vocal mic ir linear.
The best tube mic preamp I know (it's just for me) is GT ViPre.
It is not linear and has distortion enough.
Most others - the same.

Closer to linear mics and preamps are used for some special natural recordings of environment, orchestras, acoustic instruments, choirs, some other distanced sound sources.
However such recordings never are linear because distances, directions and room acoustics are affecting linearity strong.
Linear mics are used generally for measurement needs in laboratory.
Very rare for home recording.

There is one system in studio what must be as linear as possible.
It is studio monitor system.

 

[miroslav]

Miroslav: That^ is not how it was done.

I place only a very small value on someone taking a single/same piece of audio signal, feeding it to a bunch of pres, then having their individual outputs converted to a bunch of WAVs, and then having people pick which pre is which or which one they think sounded better, more chocolate or vanilla or whatever.
I'm talking about using something, hands-on, from session to session, on a variety of sources in a variety of situations, over time....
...and THEN coming to some conclusion about what is "better" (to you) or what is "whatever" flavored (to you).

I certainly don't have nothing but the crème of high-end studio gear, but piece by piece, over many years, I've witnessed on more than one occasion when a higher-end piece of gear simply sounded/worked more....ahhhhhh....higher-end than the less expensive, more pro-sumer grade of gear I replaced with it.
It wasn't just wishful expectations....I wasn't trying to impress anyone...it was what I heard and witnessed. If I fooled myself once, and didn't want to admit it having spent the money....I certainly would not have done it again with another piece of gear when finances allowed.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of inexpensive gear that works and sounds really good too....it's NOT just about the $$$$....but I find find it amusing that it's ONLY on home-rec focused forums that the very expensive audio gear tends to regularly get dismissed as nothing more than "hype" and/or "snake oil", and often by newbs (not you) who have VERY limited experience with gear to begin with....which makes it even more amusing.
They'll read one or two posts where someone devalues a piece of high-end gear or the whole high-end gear chase....and it completely serves their personal studio agenda, since they in most cases could never afford any of that high-end gear anyway...so they gladly buy into the low-budget approach and assume that pros only buy expensive gear to "impress clients" (as though every client knows the price tag of every racked piece in a pro studio )

I'm not saying the basic home-rec guy needs to chase after a pro studio rig in order to get anything decent recorded....but top of the line gear is not just the dollar value of it's individual components.

Oh...cars and audio gear aren't quite a good comparison.
The main purpose of a car for most people is basic transportation. The engine goes on, wheels turn, it gets you from point A to B. The quality of the transportation is only considered when it's a really bad ride, otherwise 9 out of 10 cars will do the same job for you.
That said....I would NEVER consider a Ferrari just basic transportation.

 

[ecc83]

If we are talking about voice and most lead instruments close recording - there are much more important parameters as linearity and low THD.
Polar pattern, proximity effect, size of diaphragm, frequency range, and distance, angle, room acoustics, etc.
Most case you do not need linear mic, and many case you even need to add some special distortion (exciter, tape drive, etc.).
It is somewhere similar to electric guitar recording, just not so strong
For example:
The most famous, expensive and real used in leading studios mic is Neumann U47.
It is not linear and has distortion enough.
The most popular studio mic - U87, and hundreds of others quality mics - the same.
No one stage vocal mic ir linear.
The best tube mic preamp I know (it's just for me) is GT ViPre.
It is not linear and has distortion enough.
Most others - the same.

Closer to linear mics and preamps are used for some special natural recordings of environment, orchestras, acoustic instruments, choirs, some other distanced sound sources.
However such recordings never are linear because distances, directions and room acoustics are affecting linearity strong.
Linear mics are used generally for measurement needs in laboratory.
Very rare for home recording.

There is one system in studio what must be as linear as possible.
It is studio monitor system.

MORE special pleading, special cases and technical codwallop!

Microphones are VERY linear devices, far better than lumpen loudspeakers.

The new M147 (old ones are knackered and you would never get two the same anyway) has a THD of 0.5% at 114dBSPL, deafening. At a more survivable 94dB, the distortion will have dropped to one tenth of that (cos that's how valves work) and 0.05% THD is low by anybodie's standards.

And that is a valve microphone. You can confidently expect a FET mic in a similar price bracket to handle in excess of 135dBSPL for 0.5%THD.

Believe it or not there ARE people left trying to record "high fidelity", not everyone wants to grunge everything up! We are in the middle of the Proms here.I want them as clean as possible please.

Dave.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I'm confused, first your asking for a specific technical explanation, then your dissing the guy that gives you one with graphs and math?

Bobbsy and Dave explained it perfectly, so there's no need for me to elaborate. But to address your specific question above, my point was that when "believers" are unable to provide a specific answer, they try to snow you with endless and usually irrelevant techno-babble. If they had an answer they'd be able to state it in a few sentences. But they don't, so instead they give you a homework assignment that nobody in their right mind would waste 20 hours pursuing.

BTW, the video Bobbsy referred to is here:

AES Audio Myths Workshop

--Ethan

 

[miroslav]

But Ethan....you're always handing out homework assignments, links, graphs and math that would require 20 hours to pursue....in defense of your own views.

I'm curious...how would you feel if someone said to you that Real Traps in their component state are just paper, plastic, and metal, wrapped around some fiberglass...and they aren't worth more than $20-$30 as raw material.

You have this tendency to constantly take shots at high-end audio products and reduce them all down to $0.50 components....though you avoid actually naming brands.

 

[ecc83]

But Ethan....you're always handing out homework assignments, links, graphs and math that would require 20 hours to pursue....in defense of your own views.

I'm curious...how would you feel if someone said to you that Real Traps in their component state are just paper, plastic, and metal, wrapped around some fiberglass...and they aren't worth more than $20-$30 as raw material.

You have this tendency to constantly take shots at high-end audio products and reduce them all down to $0.50 components....though you avoid actually naming brands.

I know nothing of Ethan's products and I only know OF the man by reputation (which is legendary, you guys are lucky to have him!) but I am sure they are priced competitively.

I only know the merest squidian about acoustics being an old valve jockey but what I do know is that it is a complex science and designing the materials is not a trivial task. But then I dare say he is not going to tell us where he gets his fairy dust from that he sprinkles over every trap and diffuser!

STILL no "mechanism" for top line pre amps? Still no .wav clips.
Dave.

 

[miroslav]

I'm not trying to take away from Ethan's audio rep....I've known him on the web for many years now, across a few audio forums...and I've recommended his Real Traps to people.

I was just making the point that reducing quality products to generic, raw components can be done with everything...and when viewed only as raw components, you can make most products appear to be....nothing special.