Is 15W enough?

[myhatbroke]

This is what I am planning on getting http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Randall-RG75G3-G3-Series-Guitar-Combo-Amp-?sku=480334

The tone is awesome and you can customise it pretty well. Real heavy and it sounds like a tube amp. I think it is a tube amp but its made a little differently. Either way i think its ridiculous to play with a 15w amp on stage, your amp wont last much if you have the volume all the way up. And if you mic it through a pa, you better have a good Sound Tech.

 

[Keiffer]

Buying amps based on watts is generally a bad approach. Buying based on sound is usually better.

Ed

Agreement...

since we're discussing physics, the physics of playing in a Metal band 99 out of 100 times dictate more than 15 W...

now, go find a great metal amp with at least 50W

I record Metal bands and many come in with small amps, (they have no money)... 10 of 10 use mine (I have several hi-gainers)... why, because they sound Metal. I have several other lower wattage amps but with fewer gain stages... they don't get a passing glance.

We are talking saturated guitar tones... aren't we

Also, you can't always rely on the PA for your volume

 

[Ed Dixon]

since we're discussing physics, the physics of playing in a Metal band 99 out of 100 times dictate more than 15 W...

now, go find a great metal amp with at least 50W

There are no rules of physics that relate what is needed to play metal. Opinions might state that, but not physics. At least a couple others who have experience with this amp seem to think it works fairly well.

The difference between 15W and 50W is around 5db, which is not much. Speaker efficiency can make a far larger difference than watts.

Most of the sound of overdriven guitar is driven more by preamp design and amp power. Again that is independent of watts. Older Fender amps have lots of power and volume, but more clean like sounds. Marshall amps, which might be smaller in size and volume have many more overdrive opportunities.

Ed

 

[Keiffer]

think what you will... but your position just doesn't jive with with my 30+ years gigging... nor with my EE degree.

I'll put my 5150, Cobra or Rectifier up against my Champ or Princeton Reverb for Metal any day... and thru the same cab.

 

[Ed Dixon]

think what you will... but your position just doesn't jive with with my 30+ years gigging... nor with my EE degree.

I'll put my 5150, Cobra or Rectifier up against my Champ or Princeton Reverb for Metal any day... and thru the same cab.

I offer no position on one amp over another for any particular user. Each has to make up their own mind up as to what works for them. However my comments on the physics of sound are fact, not opinion. For the record, I've been playing for 42 years and I have three degrees including one in EE.

Fender Princeton amps are not overdrive amps. One needs effects in front of them for overdrive sounds. However they can produce a far amount of volume. I used one for a number of years some decades ago fairly effectively. I moded the amp and added a 12” heavy duty EV speaker.

The Fender Princeton is what I believe Carlos Santana started with many years ago with a friend making mods to it. I believe that effort resulted in Mesa Boogie. Read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Boogie

Today I use a rack system with an assortment of components from Marshall, Behringer, Carvin, TC Electronics, Rockman and others. It can produce about any kind of sound and has plenty of volume. My amp is a single rack space Carvin that can do about 50W into 8 ohms. I tend to run it set for 10db down, which is probably around 5 Watts.

Ed

 

[soundchaser59]

A gear head buys a name and a power rating.....

A guitar player buys a sound.....

If you really are in love with the sound of the amp and rig that you found, stick with it and use the extra money you might spend on a huge power rating to buy more speakers. I can double the "perceived" volume of my YCV20WR just by plugging in to a 4x10 cab packed with Weber Michigans.... and I get the same tone that I love. Be resourceful and figure out later how to make it seem louder.

Besides, look more than 2 or 3 years down the road and ask yourself how your ears will be doing after you spend 10 or 15 years battering them with 150 watts.... a small amp wth a mic in front of it, that mic is your ear's best friend.

 

[Scrubucket7]

Get a bigger amp, youll thank yourself later. Theres alot of good, medium sized, amps that are pretty cheap. Just save a little extra money, go to guitar center (or wherever) and try out what they have. I play loud, fast punk and I used to try and use a 15watt amp for practice and it just didnt work. The sound was brittle and lacking any real body, in the end, i realized i should have just bought a bigger amp to begin with.

 

[Outlaws]

I think pretty much all the venues around here mic up the amps anyway so that should be fine. Will i need to do that for band practice (prob 2 guitars, bass and drums) cause that may get a bit tedious
I do love the amp though

I rarely got to crank my Blues Jr all the way up at practice when I had it because everyone said it was too loud. It is plenty for band practice and it will do okay for a gig so long as you aim it out to the crowd.

 

[Ed Dixon]

A gear head buys a name and a power rating.....

A guitar player buys a sound.....

If you really are in love with the sound of the amp and rig that you found, stick with it and use the extra money you might spend on a huge power rating to buy more speakers. I can double the "perceived" volume of my YCV20WR just by plugging in to a 4x10 cab packed with Weber Michigans.... and I get the same tone that I love. Be resourceful and figure out later how to make it seem louder.

Besides, look more than 2 or 3 years down the road and ask yourself how your ears will be doing after you spend 10 or 15 years battering them with 150 watts.... a small amp wth a mic in front of it, that mic is your ear's best friend.

Well said. Also consider getting a small amp stand so you can tilt it up towards you. That way you hear better at lower overall stage volume.

It’s also worth commenting that stage volume is supposed to be just that. Volume for the stage, not the audience. Most of what the audience should hear should come through the PA. If your stage volume is too loud, because of overpowered amps driven too high, the sound person has no control.

Ed

 

[Outlaws]

Get a bigger amp, youll thank yourself later. Theres alot of good, medium sized, amps that are pretty cheap. Just save a little extra money, go to guitar center (or wherever) and try out what they have. I play loud, fast punk and I used to try and use a 15watt amp for practice and it just didnt work. The sound was brittle and lacking any real body, in the end, i realized i should have just bought a bigger amp to begin with.

So was that a shitty 15 watt practice amp? A Blues Junior or a Deluxe Reverb will not behave like what you described.

I have had a 100 watt Marshall, a 15 watt Blues Junior, a 15 watt Pro Junior (a 10" speaker), a 40 watt Super Reverb, a 40 watt Hot Rod Deluxe, a THD UniValve (see signature), and various crap from well before I can even remember. I think that all the tube amps I have owned.... EIther way, all of them have performed as needed. None was not loud enough.....well, I take that back....if you are playing metal maybe not on the two 15 watters mentioned...but those are not metal amps anyways so its a mute point really.

But the THD is putting out about 5-10 watts at the moment, but it is hooked up to that Marshall cab you see and it is FUCKING LOUD! Ya, it would be louder if I put some KT88's back in it or hooked up a 100 watt Marshall head, but there is nothing "lacking" about it.


To the original poster.....you can always get a 412 extention cab.

 

[Keiffer]

based on the original post...

if you can find a 15 W amp with the type of saturation you're looking for and you know you'll always have a house PA and a sound guy and so on, then get it.

otherwise I recommend at least a 50W hi gain head and matching cab...

kp-

 

[Outlaws]

based on the original post...

if you can find a 15 W amp with the type of saturation you're looking for and you know you'll always have a house PA and a sound guy and so on, then get it.

otherwise I recommend at least a 50W hi gain head and matching cab...

kp-

This might be a bit pricey, but Soldano makes a 20 watt amp called the AstroVerb 16 that should do it for metal. That wilh a 412 cab down the road and there should be no question to who can crank their amp all the way into power tube saturation and still rock out without people saying to turn it down. Try that with a Triple Rec.

 

[Outlaws]

But to point out something I read earlier in this thread....

Yes, speaker efficientcy is MORE important than watts. Because you can easily make up 2-3 dB with a more efficient speaker(s).

 

[Ed Dixon]

The original post said he liked the sound but was only concerned about it being loud enough. Those with experience with this amp seem to generally think that not to be a problem.

For reference, speakers are rated based on Sound Pressure Level (SPL). A typical good speaker cabinet will produce about 100db with 1W. This link is a reference to common sound levels.

http://www.osuairport.org/development/runway_bin/January04/Board1_typicalsoundlevels.pdf

100db is about the sound level of a passing train while standing next to the tracks. 110db is shown as the max level at a rock concert.

Those that want to be able to hear in 10 years will really want to avoid too many 100+db stage volume environments.

Ed

 

[boingoman]

Ed is right about volume, all things being equal. 10X power gives you 10db volume increase, which is about double.

Keifer brings up a good point, that many low power amps often don't have the more sophisticated gain stages bigger amps do. Very often they don't have as many options in terms of channels, fx loops, etc.

Also, a small amp may not be able get clean sounds at it's limit, where a larger amp will be able to crank out plenty of clean sound at the same volume.

Something that doesn't get brought up much in the big vs. small debate- a 100W guitar amp can be twice as loud as a 10W amp. But the key is that if both amps are set the same, the 100W will be twice as loud across the whole dynamic range of the guitar.

What I mean is this:

Amps put out watts in proportion to the input signal. In this case it's the signal from the guitar. If you plug into both amps, the 10W puts out 10W, the 100W puts out 100W. Now turn both amps down to 50% output. The 10W now puts out 5W, the 100W puts out 50W. Still twice as loud. The same thing happens when you turn the guitar volume down.

The point is that unless the 100W amp is set to put out 10W, it will ALWAYS be louder than the 10W amp, not just at the peaks. Strum the guitar quietly- the 100W will be louder. Turn on the distortion and chug away- the 100W will be louder.

Rant-

For practice (and gigs) it's amazing how much louder your amp will be to you if you actually point it at your ears by tilting it or getting it up off the ground or both.

Many guitar players seem to think that their ears are either behind their knees, in their asses, or in a completely different part of the room. They will play with their amps on the floor behind them, next to the drum kit, or on the other side of it, or pointing at the bass player. And wonder why they can't hear it.

Your ears are in your head. Best results will come from pointing amp at ears, or ears at amp.

If you don't want your amp pointed at your ears because it's too loud, chances are nobody else wants it pointed at them either.

Rant off.

 

[Outlaws]

The original post said he liked the sound but was only concerned about it being loud enough. Those with experience with this amp seem to generally think that not to be a problem.

For reference, speakers are rated based on Sound Pressure Level (SPL). A typical good speaker cabinet will produce about 100db with 1W. This link is a reference to common sound levels.

http://www.osuairport.org/development/runway_bin/January04/Board1_typicalsoundlevels.pdf

100db is about the sound level of a passing train while standing next to the tracks. 110db is shown as the max level at a rock concert.

Those that want to be able to hear in 10 years will really want to avoid too many 100+db stage volume environments.

Ed

Most Celestions seem to be rated at 96-100 dB.
My Greenbacks are rated 98 I think. But the re-issue Heritage ones (read: $$$) are only 96dB.
But you get something like a Vintage 30 and you got a 100dB speaker. Thats a good boost in 'power' IMO.

 

[Ed Dixon]

What I use for speakers are an actual monitor. It sits on floor behind me pointed directly up at me. I hear it, but little stage volume. We add a small amount of my guitar to the monitor mix for othes on the other side of the stage that need to hear it.

Result is lower stage volume, good control for sound person, I hear it well, and it affects the sound of others on stage trying to hear themselves very little.

This is my portable rig.

http://www.mtnsys.com/variax/Eds rig.jpg

Ed

 

[Outlaws]

What I use for speakers is this:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/two/0,,2076_263341722_262409755,00.html

All of you can suck it cause I got more power than you. I figure in 10 years I should be able to get enough volume to stop the human heart...whats that...198-202 dB to kill someone if I recall?

Scott started developing the 2002 Ford F-250 back in May of 2002, he broke it down right to the frame for the construction of the subwoofer enclosures; which currently holds 13 Pioneer Premier TS-W5000SPL subwoofers!

Steel bars were used to reinforce the frame of the enclosure, so that the truck could withstand the enormous pressure that is generated by this silver beast. The windshield was removed and replaced with 2-1/2-inch thick plexi-glass. Each door weighs in at a whooping 200 pounds, both utilizing 1” x 2” aluminum hinges to lock them down in place. The air space inside the truck is vacuum-sealed to prevent air leakage, which is crucial in Sound Pressure Competition.

The truck holds 52 amplifiers, 72 16-volt Turbo Start batteries and three Ohio Generator 285-amp alternators and produces 115,200 watts of power. A Pioneer DEX-P1R is cleverly mounted on a special pod outside of the car to control the system during competitions. Scott uses Scosche Interconnects, exclusively.

In IdBL, he set a “Highest in IdBL History” record with a monstrous 179.0 dB. The highest ever recorded with an Audio Control System, at the time of the event.

I seem to rememebr reading he has since hit 180.5 dB.

EDIT:
180.3 at the IASCA/USACi Unified Finals, October 15th & 16th, 2005. Thats a world record.

 

[Ed Dixon]

Some years ago I got involved in a yearly town festival that involved a “loudest car stereo” contest. The first year I just showed up to judge. The day after the contest I purchased a sound pressure meter.

In following years, being somewhat wiser to what to expect, I arrived with sound meter and ear blocking head phones. The last year the winner was a guy with a Chevy Vega with a number of 18” speakers mounted where the rear seat used to have been. When music played, and the doors were closed, the sheet metal on the car moved in and out.

Ed

 

[Lt. Bob]

IMO 15 watts isn't gonna do it for live unless you always have a good PA/ monitor system and sound guy.
Having said that ...... class A amps can get surprisingly loud ....... perhaps loud enough for practice, but it would have to be class A to even have a chance. Something like that Vox modeler certainly isn't gonna be loud enough.
It has a lot to do with the power supply of the amp but especially whether it's class A or not.

, your amp wont last much if you have the volume all the way up. And if you mic it through a pa, you better have a good Sound Tech.

I totally agree about the soundman part ....... in local club type situations I, personally, prefer to get al my sound from the stage 'cause I don't like a soundman having control of how my git sounds. First, I don't see that many good soundmen ..... 2nd, the only person that really knows what I want is me.

As for the amp not lasting ..... that's not really true.
For example ...... a class A amp is running full out all the time regardless of how high you turn it up. That's part of what class A is ........ even if you're not playing a sound at all, the amp is running flat out ...... no difference between running it on 10 with a guitar wailing thru it or unplugging your git and letting it sit silently. Either way the amps running wide open .... consuming the same electricity either way.