IR and convolution on cans - how far we are from this?

[YanKleber]

A couple of days ago a newcomer fellow has started a thread asking opinions about two products (one of them from Waves) which promises to turn headphones into a reliable replacements for true monitors. I am one of the dudes that doubted that they aren't more than pure babble mostly because the way as it was advertised (I always distrust products which excessive hyping).

Now yesterday I was reading some online articles about convolution and impulse response and this question started to hammer inside my head. Since this technology has the ability of insert environmental characteristics into the equation (and it does it really fine with reverb/amp/cab/mike/etc simulation) I think that it is YES possible to put some "virtual air" in the cans.

What I think is that it wouldn't be "replacing" the monitors but actually doing something better that is make the cans sound like X or Y monitors in X or Y environment using X or Y equipment. This way we could have an idea how the mix would sound in a treated studio, an opened space, a big party room, a house hall stereo, inside a car... Wouldn't it be really a thing?

I sincerely think that it IS possible and that overtime someone will release a tool able to do that. What do you fellows think about this?

 

[leddy]

I think the monitor environment should be pretty dead so you can hear the ambience and depth you are creating/preserving. Adding convolution room interaction to the monitoring chain will only confuse the process, I would say. The headphone room simulation can add some crosstalk between the left and right and probably serve to reveal some things you would need monitors to hear, but so can a mono button or a phase meter to a similar degree. Shortcuts are always risky. Usually no substitute for having proper tools from the start. Usable monitors are not that expensive, likewise some Owens Corning 703 and some fabric.

 

[Massive Master]

Have a glass of water: Headphones sound different.

DON'T have a glass of water: Headphones sound different.

Get a haircut: Headphones sound different.

Beard? Headphones sound different.

Body changes throughout the day: Headphones sound different.

Ear pads warm and compress an extra millimeter over 10 minutes of wear: Headphones sound different.

Cans shift on head a millimeter: Headphones sound different.

Shift back a millimeter: Headphones sound different.

Long story short, I don't think headphones will ever be as consistent and accurate as good speakers in a good space.

THAT SAID -- As it was mentioned back there somewhere -- REMOVING the space (headphones) can once in awhile actually be beneficial. When trying to dial in convolution and what not. And of course for spotting miscellaneous anomalies and such...

 

[mjbphotos]

How could an IR make a 'good' listening environment (monitors, treatment) out of a bad one (headphones)?

 

[MrUserNameIV]

headphones primarily for mixing is pretty terrible, except for checking your mix. I would only resort to that if you absolutely have no other option. I don't see how an Impulse Response could change that.

 

[ashcat_lt]

How could an IR make a 'good' listening environment (monitors, treatment) out of a bad one (headphones)?

There are two real problems with mixing in headphones:

1) You don't get the crosstalk/acoustic mixing between the L and R speakers signals on the way to your ears. It's pretty easy to fake that in headphones. Mix each into the other some. If you want to get fance, apply a little delay to that crossfeed. If you want to get super fancy, add the filter effect of the sound going through/around your head.

B) You can't feel the bass. Good headphones can actually be flat down at least as low as your budget monitors, but our ears actually don't translate that to our brains very well. We kind of depend on the actual physical vibration to fill in some of that extreme low frequency info. You just can't get that from headphones.

So, it can sort of work, and probably pretty well. There are people doing it and getting decent results. I never bothered when I was forced into headphones. Rather, I got familiar with the cans themselves and how the things that I heard in them related and translated to other systems, and then made sure to double and triple check my mixes on those other systems. Both are things you really should do with "real" monitor/room combinations anyway

@Massive - I move my head forward and back, up and down, and even a little side to side all the time in front of my monitors. Unless you're going to strap yourself into some sort of immobilizing brace, you're never going to be listening at the same position relative to your speakers as any other time you've ever listened to them except by complete accident. Those differences are like an order of magnitude bigger than the little changes you've described.

 

[Nola]

So, it can sort of work, and probably pretty well. There are people doing it and getting decent results. I never bothered when I was forced into headphones. Rather, I got familiar with the cans themselves and how the things that I heard in them related and translated to other systems, and then made sure to double and triple check my mixes on those other systems. Both are things you really should do with "real" monitor/room combinations anyway

I agree. Many pro engineers are using only headphones now b/c they are mobile and want to mix when on the road, or they just know their headphones and can mix quickly in them. I think monitors are one of the most overrated pieces of gear. There's a guy in the mix clinic who mixed on apple earbuds and his mix sounds better than many people using monitors...so i think a lot of it is if you have good taste, good ear, know your gear's quirks, etc. Monitors are fine don't get me wrong but i just don't think they're as mandatory as made out to be on the internet. Convlusion cans seem like a logical progression, and I'm sure they will be fine, too, if you know how to use them.

 

[CMolena]

I'll just leave my opinion here and maybe some of you will hate it. But I have to agree with Nola...I've heard people's mixes that are mixed with monitors and they sound awful.

I do mix with earbudds most of the time and I'm not ashamed of doing so, because I dont have money now to buy a good pair of monitors. One thing I do to sort of...get around that is:

1 - I do the raw mix (basically panning and volume adjusting) switching between a mono speaker and my earbuds (of course in mono).

2 - 70% of the mix, like adding EQ, compression and all sorts of stuff with the earbudds in stereo.

3 - Then I compare my mix to a professional mix (a band that I want the mix to be similar) in my car. If there is anything left to tweak in the mix I definately notice it in my car speakers.

I dont care if this is pro or not. All I know is that there are people out there with plently of pro equip but can do shit and dont have any personality when mixing, turning everything generic and boring.

 

[ashcat_lt]

I dont care if this is pro or not.

You know what makes a mix professional?

Getting paid for it.

All I know is that there are people out there with plently of pro equip but can do shit and dont have any personality when mixing, turning everything generic and boring.

Ahem...

I am really happy to finally have good speakers in a decent sized room where I don't usually have to worry about disturbing anybody else if I crank it a bit, and I really don't want to have to go back. That said, the mixes I made predominantly in headphones over the decades still stand up pretty well. They sound pretty much the way I want(ed), and the places where they might fall a little short or sound a little funny can't really be attributed to the monitoring so much as, like, everything else, including whatever I was drinking or smoking at the time.

 

[CMolena]

You know what makes a mix professional?

Getting paid for it.


Ahem...

I am really happy to finally have good speakers in a decent sized room where I don't usually have to worry about disturbing anybody else if I crank it a bit, and I really don't want to have to go back. That said, the mixes I made predominantly in headphones over the decades still stand up pretty well. They sound pretty much the way I want(ed), and the places where they might fall a little short or sound a little funny can't really be attributed to the monitoring so much as, like, everything else, including whatever I was drinking or smoking at the time.

I agree with you. I really dont intend to glamourize "amateur" methods of mixing. Its just my view on the subject.

 

[Greg_L]

I agree. Many pro engineers are using only headphones now b/c they are mobile and want to mix when on the road, or they just know their headphones and can mix quickly in them. I think monitors are one of the most overrated pieces of gear. There's a guy in the mix clinic who mixed on apple earbuds and his mix sounds better than many people using monitors...so i think a lot of it is if you have good taste, good ear, know your gear's quirks, etc. Monitors are fine don't get me wrong but i just don't think they're as mandatory as made out to be on the internet. Convlusion cans seem like a logical progression, and I'm sure they will be fine, too, if you know how to use them.

I'll just leave my opinion here and maybe some of you will hate it. But I have to agree with Nola...I've heard people's mixes that are mixed with monitors and they sound awful.

I do mix with earbudds most of the time and I'm not ashamed of doing so, because I dont have money now to buy a good pair of monitors. One thing I do to sort of...get around that is:

1 - I do the raw mix (basically panning and volume adjusting) switching between a mono speaker and my earbuds (of course in mono).

2 - 70% of the mix, like adding EQ, compression and all sorts of stuff with the earbudds in stereo.

3 - Then I compare my mix to a professional mix (a band that I want the mix to be similar) in my car. If there is anything left to tweak in the mix I definately notice it in my car speakers.

I dont care if this is pro or not. All I know is that there are people out there with plently of pro equip but can do shit and dont have any personality when mixing, turning everything generic and boring.

These two posts are perfect examples of why everything in modern home recording is going down the shitter.

 

[miroslav]

Saying that some people's monitor mixes sound like shit has NOTHING to do with validating the use of headphones instead of monitors.

The DJs using 'phones and the guys "on the move" are irrelevant.
EVERYBODY that does serious mixing for serious $$$...is using monitors for the bulk of critical mixing decisions.

Not saying headphones don't have any use...they are actually a studio staple, just like monitors...but all this shit that plug-in companies are pimping that tries to dodge basic physics and acoustic principles is aimed at the home-rec crowd that "got no money" or "got no space" to go with monitors in their setups....and the people who want to live in denial eat it up with a spoon.

 

[CMolena]

These two posts are perfect examples of why everything in modern home recording is going down the shitter.

And this post is the perfect example of someone who does have proper equipment and "knowledge" of EXACTLY how to record or mix and simply cant make a single song stick in my head or make myself wonder "hm, how he made the drums sound so good like this?"

 

[miroslav]

What's songs sticking in your head got to do with it?
That's more about personal tastes.
Not looking to burst anyone's bubble...but most of the stuff I hear on HR doesn't stick in my head...and I'm sure none of my stuff does for anyone either.

We're talking about phsyics/acoustics and mixing principals.

 

[CMolena]

What's songs sticking in your head got to do with it?
That's more about personal tastes.
Not looking to burst anyone's bubble...but most of the stuff I hear on HR doesn't stick in my head...and I'm sure none of my stuff does for anyone either.

Thing is, I hate when someone says "This is not how music should be made" like they are some kind of superior on the subject. Headphones or no headphones the main thing should be how to make music with your own adversities and not about "well I dont have proper equipment to make music...guess I'll keep my songs on the paper."

 

[Greg_L]

And this post is the perfect example of someone who does have proper equipment and "knowledge" of EXACTLY how to record or mix and simply cant make a single song stick in my head or make myself wonder "hm, how he made the drums sound so good like this?"

When people like you don't even know what you don't know, people like me know you don't know.

---------- Update ----------

Saying that some people's monitor mixes sound like shit has NOTHING to do with validating the use of headphones instead of monitors.

The DJs using 'phones and the guys "on the move" are irrelevant.
EVERYBODY that does serious mixing for serious $$$...is using monitors for the bulk of critical mixing decisions.

Not saying headphones don't have any use...they are actually a studio staple, just like monitors...but all this shit that plug-in companies are pimping that tries to dodge basic physics and acoustic principles is aimed at the home-rec crowd that "got no money" or "got no space" to go with monitors in their setups....and the people who want to live in denial eat it up with a spoon.

This ^^^^^

Ignorance is bliss for these guys.

 

[miroslav]

Thing is, I hate when someone says "This is not how music should be made" like they are some kind of superior on the subject. Headphones or no headphones the main thing should be how to make music with your own adversities and not about "well I dont have proper equipment to make music...guess I'll keep my songs on the paper."

OK fine...but this thread is asking IF headphones + plugin can replace monitors & room....and it seems like a couple of you don't want to hear the simple answer....no, they can't.

 

[CMolena]

Dude, I mix some bands from the town I live in, they are happy with what I can get and I'm happy with them being happy. Thats what its all about in the end.

I cant make a living out ONLY mixing yet, but I study a lot and I pratice recording and mixing almost every weekend and there is a lot of "pro" people from here that make music sound terrible and actually thats what made me start to learn how to do all of this. Because the other engineers from around here just couldnt understand when I said: "Dude, I want to sound a little bit fucked up."

I only mix with headphones because I dont have enough money to buy a good pair of monitors. Even if Steve Albini came to me and said "dude, you aare doing it the worng way" (which I dont think he would even if he had the chance, because he is not that arrogant) it would not make me stoop what I'm doing.

Its not about ignorance and wanting to be a shithead. Its about just doing stuff with what I got.

 

[RFR]

Back on the original subject, I dont buy it for one fucking second. I mean, come on! A computer sim is going to duplicate the sound of a world class control room?

What are you going to hear that on??

A set of ear buds, Dr. Drey beats, hyped best buy headphones?

However good the plug-in is, it is STILL limited by the audio device tasked to the challenge of reproducing it.

Be better to get a good room and some good monitoring.

 

[Nola]

Saying that some people's monitor mixes sound like shit has NOTHING to do with validating the use of headphones instead of monitors.

The DJs using 'phones and the guys "on the move" are irrelevant.
EVERYBODY that does serious mixing for serious $$$...is using monitors for the bulk of critical mixing decisions.

Not saying headphones don't have any use...they are actually a studio staple, just like monitors...but all this shit that plug-in companies are pimping that tries to dodge basic physics and acoustic principles is aimed at the home-rec crowd that "got no money" or "got no space" to go with monitors in their setups....and the people who want to live in denial eat it up with a spoon.

Miroslav, I wasn't talking about Djs really but pro mixers. Andrew Schepps is better than any of us, and he recently went to mixing all ITB and even did complete mixes on headphones recently (though, he does like speakers). There are many engineers doing this now. It's just the times. Laptops, people on the move, etc. They work with the gear and produce great sounds on headphones and ITB. Either way is fine and it's all about the result. I personally think monitoring is overrated because you can get it like 90% in headphones and then just A/B things, and in a bad room I wouldn't want monitors and feel headphones reduce the bad acoustics of my room.