Interesting Mic controversy

[DJL]

Not again Don, please don't.

Alan does have a point.

And so does nkjanssen... anyway, no problem Han... I was just agreeing with nkjanssen.

 

[Hard2Hear]

post an example of your work.

Yeah, just avoid it.

 

[Olflattop]

Agreed, but then you have two similar not so very good microphones at any price......

Which is the point of the this whole mess. Telefunken USA can't be blamed for being enterprising, for sure, but their claim that the M16 can be made to sound markedly different by changing a couple of caps and slapping on some cool paint is nonsense, in my opinion.

 

[EleKtriKaz]

If anyone has followed the posts of this Telefunken CEO over at gearslutz, then I'm sure their not suprised at this controversy. From his posts the guy seems like an absolute slime ball. There were forums where people were discussing the high-end U47 clones like the Soundelux, Wagner, etc...and this guy would come in and post something like, "Don't settle for a cheap imitation...blah...blah..blah.. get a real U47...nothing else compares...blah...blah...blah..."

I have never seen spam so blatant. I'll be honest, when I started getting into recording I didn't realize how intelligent all of the people who do this are. I don't understand how some of these people can think we're all so stupid. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who know more about his company's mics (past and present) than he does.

 

[ausrock]

ADK....AudioDeutchKraft as they were originally known went out of their way to have people believe they were of Teutonic origins. When it first became apparent that they were probably Chinese, I rang around a number of dealers out here who all told me they were German mics as this is the information they were given for marketing. The replies I received at the time from Larry Villela over the "misunderstanding" could only be described as an offensive load of bullshit.

BTW, this is not meant as a reflection on their current range of mics.

 

[Giganova]

I thought for a long time, too, that ADK is either German or Austrian. After all, why would they name a mic "Hamburg" and advertise with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra??

 

[sdelsolray]

You really have a hate on for ADK, don't you? You seem to slam them at every opportunity, even when its not at all relevent to the current discussion.

ADK is true competition for Studio Projects. Although ADK's Audiophile Series is generally more expensive than SP's mics, many like them better for the most part, me included. Dunno much about the less expensive ADK or Generis mics.

All of these manufacturers make dubious claims at one time or another. SP's most famous is (I'm paraphrasing) - "Out mics sound as good or better than expensive German mics." It was on their website. Probably still is. Total BS, but only in my opinion.

 

[noisedude]

Han, H2H etc ... you will be liberated by use of the 'ignore' function. I have been.

I think this needs to stop branching out into a wider conversation, lest we lose sight of the real issue here:

A respected company just put something like $1000 markup on a mic in return for a few bucks' worth of upgrades.

This isn't about any other company, or is this mic better than that mic. This is about out-and-out deception and I agree with Xstatic that it stinks. Can you imagine if Warner started re-releasing old MGM films and claiming they were new productions? People might like the films, if they were good, but they sure as hell wouldn't appreciate being lied to.

 

[DJL]

ADK is true competition for Studio Projects. Although ADK's Audiophile Series is generally more expensive than SP's mics, many like them better for the most part, me included. Dunno much about the less expensive ADK or Generis mics.

All of these manufacturers make dubious claims at one time or another. SP's most famous is (I'm paraphrasing) - "Out mics sound as good or better than expensive German mics." It was on their website. Probably still is. Total BS, but only in my opinion.

PMI Audio Group chased ADK (Larry) off hr.com... they did the same with DBX (Tom) and etc... that is part of the way they market products... by flaming their competition. Oh and here it is word for word... "Our mics are every bit as good or better at a fraction of the cost you would pay for a world class German microphone. No, we are not a German mic, but we sure do sound like those $3,000.00 models." And they have pictures of German mics accompanying their marketing BS with the names fussed out... but you know what German mic company they claim their mics are supposedly better than... lol. But at least they reclognize Neumann as a "world class German microphone" company... and maybe that's what they mean by "After all, PMI Audio Group knows good sound"... lol. Oh, and this is the part that really makes me lol... "After all, PMI Audio Group knows good sound and by bringing Studio Projects in directly without the added middleman stepping all over the product, we can make them very affordable." PMI Audio Group is a distribution company... PMI-AG doesn't make the Studio Projects mics... 797 Audio in China makes them... and PMI-AG "bringing Studio Projects in directly" or out of China to dealers who middleman them to customers.

PMI Audio Group and their internet supporters are in full force here at hr.com with at least 5 PMI-AG employees and who knows how many allies they use... so don't be surprised if and when they attack us for posting this here at hr.com.

 

[Warhead]

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but this has ceased to be an interesting controversy.

This is as true today as it was days ago.

War

 

[xstatic]

Sorry Noisedude, I am not the one that said that this whole thing stinks. I agree that the pictures are disconcerting, but I am the one who has decided not to pass judgement at all until both the Apex and Telefunken have had some time to settle into the market. I will make my decision with my ears, and not off of any charts or witch hunts. I have a feeling that two months from now this whole thing is going to play out a little differently.

 

[alanhyatt]

ADK....AudioDeutchKraft as they were originally known went out of their way to have people believe they were of Teutonic origins. When it first became apparent that they were probably Chinese, I rang around a number of dealers out here who all told me they were German mics as this is the information they were given for marketing. The replies I received at the time from Larry Villela over the "misunderstanding" could only be described as an offensive load of bullshit.

BTW, this is not meant as a reflection on their current range of mics.

Thanks Ausrock, I had forgotten what name they used before they got caught and then had to change it to ADK. Just like BPM and some others who lied to the origins of their mikes.....

 

[DJL]

Thanks Ausrock, I had forgotten what name they used before they got caught and then had to change it to ADK. Just like BPM and some others who lied to the origins of their mikes.....

And IMO that is wrong... they should tell the truth. Also Alan, rather than getting ticked off... you might want to listen, learn, and correct the marketing buzz crap. For example.... rather than using the German/Neumann buzz type words that are a red flag and turn off many of us... you might want to say something like you think your mics are awesome and can hold their own against other world class mics in the studio and etc. Right now your marketing your mics as just another want-a-be German copycat. Try focusing on the plus of your products rather than flaming other companies in a lame effort to try and make your gear look better. You can take this anyway you want... but believe it or not I believe it will help you.

And to everyone here... I wonder how long it will be before the Chinese mic factories blow the whistle on the BS companies... and start making the best mics they can and marketing them only under their own company name. If and when the Chinese mic factories start doing this they might have an honest fighting chance to compete and make a name for themselves.

 

[ausrock]

DJ,

The quotes you used from PMI/SP's site are correct and you should not be challenged for that, however, if read within the whole context of the page they came from, their intent is somewhat less than what you obviously hope to imply.

From memory, the comparisons to German mics was started by a couple of reviewers well before the SP website existed..............see quote below from DigitalProSound 2001............." Believe it or not, the Studio Projects held up against the Klaus Heyne modified mic. There's a definition in the high-end that the Klaus Heyne mods are noted for, and the Studio Projects mic did not posess this definition. However, there's a presence and robustness in the mids that this U-87 had, that was closer in quality to the Studio Projects mic than the stock U-87" ............my point being, what company trying to market a product wouldn't grab these types of comparisons and use them to their advantage. I also did a C1/U87 comparison back around that time and while I don't have the experiene the source of their product.e of some of the "publishing reviewers", I couldn't really disagree with their comments.

Also from memory, and this brings us back close to the original issue of this thread, to my knowledge (and I'm happy to be corrected), PMI/SP and Marshall/MXL are the only two companies that haven't avoided the issue of sourcing their mics from China, as most of us know all too well SP happily have 797 Audio on their mics for all to see, so let's get back to the issue of those companies who choose to hide the source of their products.

 

[kidvybes]

DJ,


Also from memory, and this brings us back close to the original issue of this thread, to my knowledge (and I'm happy to be corrected), PMI/SP and Marshall/MXL are the only two companies that haven't avoided the issue of sourcing their mics from China, as most of us know all too well SP happily have 797 Audio on their mics for all to see, so let's get back to the issue of those companies who choose to hide the source of their products.

...Well said!...thanks for putting this back on point...

 

[noisedude]

Sorry Noisedude, I am not the one that said that this whole thing stinks. I agree that the pictures are disconcerting, but I am the one who has decided not to pass judgement at all until both the Apex and Telefunken have had some time to settle into the market. I will make my decision with my ears, and not off of any charts or witch hunts. I have a feeling that two months from now this whole thing is going to play out a little differently.

I was referring to your post after the Telefunken quote where you said you felt you were the only one still reserving judgement for your ears.

"Well, I guess I am the only one here who is not anti telefunken now. you guys win"

I mis-stated your position somewhat (it was late) but I definitely agree with you that it stinks to hold a witch-hunt without using our ears. My own opinion is that R-F-T deserve all the bad PR they get for putting such an unnecessary markup on what is essentially a cheap product.

If all companies charge on the quality of their brand name and the subjective quality of sound only, then you will find that mics like ADK and SP get very much more expensive, Mackie mixers will become very cheap and everyone will be thoroughly pissed off.

 

[xstatic]

I agree with you in many ways Noisedude. ADK and SP may be underpriced given their sound quality in comparison to other mic lines that are similarly priced. My research has shown that initial reivews of the sonic qualities of the Telefunken are good. Even then though, there are only a small handful of actual user reports. So i don't even take that for law. Initial Apex reviews are bad. Once again though, there have not been too many actual users commenting. On another note, the new Mackie Onyx stuff is much different than the older VLZ. I feel the new Onyx is fairly priced. Even the vlz stuff was (when you factor in when it was designed and released and what was available on the market in that price range at that time). I guess I am just frustrated in all the opinions posted by people that are exhibiting no objectivity. I don't care who made a mic, where it was made, or what they charge for it. When I buy a mic my decision is based first on how it sounds. Then I ask myself if that sound is worth the price of admission. In the pro audio world even subtle differences can have dramatic effect on the results. I have just learned to reserve judgement until enough information can be had. With audio equipment, 95% of the important information to me is based on first, how it sounds, and second, how durable it is, and third, on price. I just find that it is too soon for me to pass judgement on this issue. There are still too many unknowns that with a little time will reveal themselves more clearly.

 

[giraffe]

well this thread has turned into a bunch of polite poo-smearing.

 

[noisedude]

Xstatic - yeah, I hear you. Your points are absolutely valid. And I make my buying judgements (although my budget is missing a few zeros compared to yours) in pretty much the same way. However, I guess it is possible to seperate that matter from the seeming deception of R-F-T in this example.

I guess it's no worse than Behringer's Boss guitar pedals or Genelec monitors though, and people still buy them.

 

[DJL]

Here come the PMI-AG internet friends.

DJ,

The quotes you used from PMI/SP's site are correct and you should not be challenged for that, however, if read within the whole context of the page they came from, their intent is somewhat less than what you obviously hope to imply.

The page context has been changed many times and has been watered down from the original... our mics are better than Neumann mics... to the hinted better than Neumann type theme they keep... and if they were smart they will change it again and correct it this time once and for all.

Anyway, I believe my above suggestions would help them... but they can do whatever they want. Goodbye.