In need of a little bit of help to say the least....

[Gabby Jay]

Okay, I'm new to the board (hello), so I'll tell a little bit about myself.
I'm a univeristy student and have only been playing guitar for about a year and a half, been playing alto sax for 8 years, and I got some originals I'm really interested in recording. I've already done a bit of recording with a computer mic and adobe audition, but the quality is really bad (as you might have presumed with the computer mic). I want to get some good quality recordings done, but I have no idea what to buy in order to do this, so I was looking for a little guidance from, after browsing through this forum, what looks to be veterans in the home recording industry. All I have right now is -

- Unidirectional Optimus Mic with 1/4" cable attached directly to mic (I think it was used for karaoke when bought)
- Adobe Audition
- My computer (sound card is a mid-range pricewise Soundblaster Live!, other than that I have no idea of it's capabilities).
- My instruments - Yamaha alto sax, fender telecoustic (acoustic/electric) with a preamp.
- Very little money.

So basically, I was wondering what (very cheap) solutions there were for me to get decent results. Being the newbie I am at this stuff, I bought a 1/4"-1/8" adapter and tried to plug both my guitar and mic into the computer mic slot on my sound card. The recording results were unpleasant.


I've read through the main site, and I still have no idea what I'm doing, so any help getting started would be appreciated. I've recorded in studio before, but that was on drums, and I wasn't doing any of the technical stuff, so I'm really incompetent when it comes to technical stuff and equipment, so please use layman's terms .

Thanks in advance!

Edit - Apparently I'm blind in addition to being incompetent, I didn't see the Newbie forum. So I guess this is in the wrong forum, it should be moved, I guess. Apologies!

 

[apl]

Hey, Gabby.

I feel your pain.

To relieve the pain, I bought a Tascam US122. This allows me to plug in any microphone or my guitar, bass, keys, drum machine, etc. It's about $200. It connects to your computer's USB. Some people have trouble with USBs; I didn't. I bought a Rode NT3 mic for $100 on sale. It sounds really good. There are other good mics in that price range from Studio Projects and Oktava. I bought a Digitech RP50 guitar box ($60) to plug my guitar into, and then that plugs into the US122. That way, I don't need an amp.

I recorded this with it:

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=118786

(Please leave your comments on the song. Thanks!)

US122: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040504123005012160153061602837/g=home/search/d=tp?q=us122

RP50: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=040504123005012160153061602837/g=home/search/d=tp?q=rp50

Hope this helps.

 

[Gabby Jay]

Do I need the guitar box, or can I just plug my guitar straight into the Tascam thing?

 

[apl]

Hi, Gabby.

No, you don't need the guitar box because you can indeed plug the guitar directly into the US122. I use the box for things like distortion, chorus, and reverbs. It's nice to be able to have different sounding guitars in the mix. It keeps them from washing each other out.

Did you listen to the song?

 

[Gabby Jay]

Yes I did indeed. It's very well put together, but unfortunately, it's not a style of music I enjoy in general, so I can't say I like it - however, I've listened to a wide enough variety of music to say that it's well done. You'll definately get people who like it (who are into that genre of music).

And thanks (again) for the help, it's appreciated, I'll look into spending the money on the US122.

 

[distortedrumble]

Hold Up!!! Wait A Minute!!!

man i know exactly what you went through....i recorded 2 cds with my computer soundcard....i didnt even get the soundblaster...i used the motherboard soundcard. the first one was really crappy cause it was done with the computer microphone....the second one sounded a little better cause my singer bought a microphone and cable. from somewhere other than best buy. i have an Epiphone acoustic that i spent 100 bucks turning it into an acoustic electric (i wont do that again). what i first saw the stratacoustics and the telecoustics i wanted one but never bought it cause the acoustic sound wasnt big enough. anyways...you can get a small behringer Mixer for 60 bucks http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-BEH-UB802.html i own this mixer and i like it...it gives you a cleaner signal. now I dont know how much you want to lay out for recording better stuff but think about what you want and take a look at www.americanmusical.com now one of the biggest advantages about this sight is that they have a 3 month 0% financing if you buy anything over 249.99 so your payments come out to 83.33 for 3 months of course the payments rise according to what you buy.

 

[Gabby Jay]

Cool, thanks for the info, but just wondering, why is the board you recommended so much cheaper than the one apl suggested?

 

[apl]

Because it's just a mixer. The US122 is basically an external soundcard.

Not to dis ya, dist, but I don't understand how that would help.

 

[guttadaj]

Think the main problem is that you're trying to record into your soundcard's Mic In. That input is god awful, has tons of noise, and should only be used with your computer mic for basic stuff. For audio recording, you wanna use the Line In input. The problem is that you need to get things up to Line level, that's where the mixer that distortedrumble could come in. Plus, the mixer will have mic preamps, which you also need. So, you can plug your mics and guitars into the mixer, then take the signal out into the Line In of your soundcard.

You should be able to record 2 tracks at once (if Audition supports it - not sure about that) by panning some stuff (say a guitar) left and other stuff (say your vocals) right. Set 1 track's input to your soundcard's Left Line In channel and another track's input to its Right Line In channel.

If doing overdubs, latency (hearing the signal being recorded a little bit later than it's played due to the time it takes for the soundcard to process it and spit it back out) could be a problem. I haven't used the Tascam unit that apl mentions, but did see that it says it allows for direct zero-latency monitoring which might come in handy.

HTH,
-Jeff

 

[Gabby Jay]

So just wondering apl, is the US122 just I plug it into my comp, install drivers, plug in guitar and/or mic, press record in Adobe Audition and it'll work?



And, again with the newbie questions - what's overdubbing? And if I record one track in the left line in, and one into the right line in with the mixer distorted recommended, will it record into (I don't know how to word this properly) both sides of the mix (i.e. right and left side of the mix, or just one?). I know I'm really incompetent with this stuff, but I'm trying to learn.

 

[apl]

Hi, Gabby.

Theoretically, yes. There is the risk of the normal things that go wrong when you add software and hardware to a computer, but as I said, it worked for me. I'm not familiar with Audition, but I suppose it supports most of the standard soundcards, so this should be on the list.

The direct monitoring is very nice. It's also got a headphone out with volume control so you can work without disturbing the neighbors.

 

[distortedrumble]

yeah hes right...mine is just a mixer... the us122 is a usb sound card....thats if you dont want to do usb....i tried a usb soundcard...cant remember it right now but the latency i had on mine was pretty bad i had it hooked up to a 950mhz duron 256 pc133 memory computer.....my setup now is 1.7 ghz celeron and 512 memory....I'm sure thered be a big difference if i tried it now....i went with the audiophile 2496 soundcard thats a PCI slot. but just to get a cleaner sound, i bought the mixer and plugged it into the line in.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Hey Gabby,

I have to side with distortedrumble on a mixer being beneficial to you but I don't necessarily agree with choosing Behringer equipment. The mixer will provide a number of preamps for your mics and instruments. You need a preamp to bring the signal up to line level for recording into the soundcard. Not having one is why your attempt was unpleasant. At this point you don't need a US122 because your soundcard is adequate if you are only recording 1 or 2 tracks at a time. If in the future you want to record more tracks simultaneously then you'll need a soundcard with as many ins/outs as tracks you want to record at once. The nice thing about having a mixer is the ability to add external hardware like a compressor/limiter or an equalizer to your sound. You can also record from as many sources at once as your mixer has channels. The setback with that is your cannot edit each individual source once it is mixed/recorded.

Another cheap way to improve your sound is by treating the room that you are recording in. Check out the Studio building Forum https://homerecording.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?f=20 for some great ideas.
Keep reading also because that is free here and will be more beneficial to your sound than you can imagine.

 

[apl]

And, again with the newbie questions - what's overdubbing? And if I record one track in the left line in, and one into the right line in with the mixer distorted recommended, will it record into (I don't know how to word this properly) both sides of the mix (i.e. right and left side of the mix, or just one?). I know I'm really incompetent with this stuff, but I'm trying to learn.

I don't know what your screen looks like in Audition, but in mine, you get a series of horizontal stripes that represent the recorded tracks. Those tracks can be recorded in stereo or mono. Then, there is a mixer looking thing at the bottom of the screen. Each channel of sound is assigned to a channel on the mixer. When I hit play, all of the tracks start playing. How they sound is controlled by their mixer channel. I can pan them, eq, add effects, turn them up and down, etc. Overdubbing is basically adding another track. I usually record a drum track first, then a rhythm guitar part, then a bass, and so on. If I wanted to "overdub" vocal harmonies, I would simply record them as new tracks. I can also cut and paste and rearrange the tracks. I can cut a drum fill from one place and paste it into another, etc. The solo at the end of my song was made by recording a solo, liking the middle of the solo better, then cutting and pasting the second half in front of the first half.

If Audition supports it, you will be able to record two channels into two independent tracks or one stereo track. In my software, I'm limited to recording on mono or one stereo track at a time.

BTW, in respectful response to NYMS, I do not believe any built in computer soundcard is hi-fi enough for recording music. Also, latency is not a problem with the US122 because of the direct monitoring feature. Also, I don't like applying eq or compression before bringing the signal into the computer because I can't change my mind about it. I am learning that what sounds good by itself needs something different in the mix. This makes it difficult to set eq, etc, where you'll want it be when you're all done.

 

[NYMorningstar]

I do not believe any built in computer soundcard is hi-fi enough for recording music. Also, latency is not a problem with the US122 because of the direct monitoring feature. Also, I don't like applying eq or compression before bringing the signal into the computer because I can't change my mind about it. I am learning that what sounds good by itself needs something different in the mix. This makes it difficult to set eq, etc, where you'll want it be when you're all done.

The software that comes with US122, Cubasis, can only record at 16 bit which is the same restriction as he already has. I've used the SB live and found it to be very adequate for learning digital recording and I don't think the US122 is much of an upgrade especially if he is short on cash. A mixer is much more versatile and opens a few more doors for him.

On the other subject, I've become an advid believer to get the original sound the way I want it and not to fix it in the mix. Of course the beauty of music and recording is the variety and the fun in experimenting.

 

[apl]

1. The software that comes with US122, Cubasis, can only record at 16 bit which is the same restriction as he already has.

2. ...not to fix it in the mix.

1. You are correct. However, I would assume that Audition would be better software, perhaps 24 bit, and that he would stay with that. The US122 does not require the use of Cubasis. In fact, I wouldn't recommend Cubasis.

2. My dear sir, please, I respectfully ask that you do not use that phrase with me! There is a HUGE difference between getting a high quality dry signal into the DAW for processing there and recording crap with an eye toward some ethereal opportunity to "polish the turd", as it were, later. The logical end of your concept here would be DAW software that would only sum a set of signals, with no eq, reverbs, or other plug-ins. I am sure that is not your position.

 

[NYMorningstar]

My dear sir, please, I respectfully ask that you do not use that phrase with me! There is a HUGE difference between getting a high quality dry signal into the DAW for processing there and recording crap with an eye toward some ethereal opportunity to "polish the turd", as it were, later. The logical end of your concept here would be DAW software that would only sum a set of signals, with no eq, reverbs, or other plug-ins. I am sure that is not your position.

Ok, you got it man, I won't use that phrase with you. I'm not sure why you chose to apply logic to what I suggested when you could be just a bit more pragmatic. I was just using a little reasoning and intuition to relay a message that I strongly believe. It's best to solve your sound problems at the recording stage and not have to apply e.q or compression or use plugins at the mixing and/or mastering stage. Of course I know we don't live in a perfect world so this rarely happens but that's not going to keep me from trying to get it right to start with.

Hey Gabby... you may want to look into getting a condensor mic for recording the acoustic instruments and for vocals. You can get some decent sounding ones these days for under $100. Keep in mind when purchasing one that you will need a phantom power supply to use it and that most mixers these days have it built in.

 

[Gabby Jay]

Thanks again guys, all input is greatly appreciated!

Anyways, my guitar has a pickup, so I wouldn't need to use a mic, would I? As for the mixer, all I'm recording is a guitar and vocals (and maybe sax using the mic), so which mixer should I get (i.e. really good quality - not a lot of channels, only need 2 inputs)? All tracks will be recorded one at a time(by me ), so no simultaneous recording. Any recommendations on a mixer to buy (or brand at least)?

Also, how much will the mic quality affect the sound quality in the recording? Obviously, it will to an extent, but will this 50 buck (CDN, mind you ) karaoke mic with a 1/4" cable suffice for my purposes? I just want a decent to good sounding recording, nothing mainstream quality.

One last thing - when I'd plug my headphones into the mixer, would it pick up the metronome created by Adobe Audition?

And for apl - here's a screen of what the interface for Audition looks like, you can work with each individual track if you double click on it. This is the multitrack view where you record by pressing the red R on which tracks you want to record on, and then pressing record (obviously heh).

http://www.geocities.com/gabbyojay/AdobeAudScreen.jpg

 

[apl]

Hey, NYMorningstar.

Sorry 'bout gettin' kinda snippy yesterday.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Anyways, my guitar has a pickup, so I wouldn't need to use a mic, would I?

You wouldn't need to use a mic but the quality of the recording would be much better if you do. It would be better still to use two mics while recording or you could also use one mic and record the guitar direct in and mix the two tracks later on. Instead of ditching the Radio Shack mic you might want to get a cheap condensor mic and record using both mics, mixing them later on. You could mix all three, experiment, experiment...

As for the mixer, all I'm recording is a guitar and vocals (and maybe sax using the mic), so which mixer should I get (i.e. really good quality - not a lot of channels, only need 2 inputs)?

If all you are doing is recording single tracks and know that won't be changing in the future then you may want to get a dedicated preamp instead of a mixer.

You didn't mention monitors which are pretty essential to mix your tracks. It's probably best for you to stop at a music store and check out some mics, preamps, mixers and monitors and find the sound you like. Once you do that then you can hunt for deals on Ebay or buy used equipment.

One last thing - when I'd plug my headphones into the mixer, would it pick up the metronome created by Adobe Audition?

One setup would be to send the mix too the soundcard and then back to the mixer for monitoring. You could listen to metronome or previously recorded tracks this way.

apl - np