importance of multiple overhead mics

Greg_L said:
I'm sure he did. I'm just saying I believe him that it probably started with recovery.




I use 2-ply heads and one moongel at most. Usually nothing at all. I tune my toms for the "doppler sound". Tune the bottom head a little tighter than the top and you get this musical pitch bending effect that sustains then dies out without ringing all over the place. I think it's very nice. Some ring and boom in the toms helps them cut through a mix and it sounds good. The ringing most people try to kill is exactly what makes a tom sound good in a full mix.

IMO, just my opinion, that drum is tuned too tight and it's too muffled. It's an 18" floor tom. That thing should sound damn near almost like a kick drum.
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Thanks, I'm going to screw with it in the manner you recommend as soon as I finish my omelet. I don't have two-ply heads, obviously, but I'll see what it sounds like with what I have.

Do two-ply heads lessen the sound of the attack?
 
No, 2-ply usually accentuates attack and thwarts too much ring.

You've got 4 basic head designs:
Single ply clear
Single ply coated
Two ply clear
Two ply coated

I like two ply clear or coated. Both are fine for rock and roll. They sound deeper, warmer, punchier, and last longer under hard hitters like me. I go back and forth but right now I'm using Remo Emperors. They're two ply coated. They will ring and boom, but tune em right and they'll sound fat and warm with little or no muffling.
 
If you get a minute, can do me a favor and tell me if I'm getting closer to a proper sound for the 18"? I recorded a 20-second piece with a lot of the 18" in it- I forgot I bought an Evans onyx head (which I just learned is a two-ply) at the same time I got the 18" drum many months ago. I replaced it after a week thinking I wasn't getting any attack because it's a thick head, and I'd read clear heads provide the most attack. It didn't occur to me that the mic had something to do with it back then. Ditched that muffling thing from the inside, but I do a have a few moongels on the top.

I know you hate listening to poorly-played drums, so let's pretend this isn't supposed to be a 20-second snippet of Sick Of It All's "Injustice System"... Let's say it's a perfect performance of some new weirdo genre with off-time drumming that the Germans and Swedes are into. Had to limit myself to five tries, think I needed 6. Tracks have been EQ'd, all mics and mono overhead is on, track mastered, no reverb or anything. Thanks.

https://soundcloud.com/user92696274096/song-55/s-Yrt2t
 
I'd say that's closer to what an 18 should sound like. It's not bad. I'd try to go even lower if I could.

Pop both heads off and clean the lugs really well. Lube each lug screw with a little vaseline or something. You want really smooth turns of the lugs so you can fine tune them bitches. Micro-turns, like 1/8-1/4 turn should get results. Anyway, start with the bottom head and tune it to it's lowest clean and clear booming pitch. Get it as low as you can without it flubbing out. Look for the lowest resonant sound you can get. Stop there. Then do the same with the top head while muting the bottom head. Get em both low and resonant. That's gonna be roughly the base fundamental pitch of the drum. It's happy spot. That's how it naturally wants to be. Then from there you can tweak the bottom head tighter or looser to suit the sound you want. Tweak the top head a little for attack and stick rebound. Heads too tight choke the drum and don't let it breathe. Too much muffling chokes the drum. Forcing the drum to a pitch it doesn't want to be chokes the drum. Let it sound big and huge and then you can manage the ringing or resonance with moongels and mic positioning.
 
Greg_L said:
I'd say that's closer to what an 18 should sound like. It's not bad. I'd try to go even lower if I could.

Pop both heads off and clean the lugs really well. Lube each lug screw with a little vaseline or something. You want really smooth turns of the lugs so you can fine tune them bitches. Micro-turns, like 1/8-1/4 turn should get results. Anyway, start with the bottom head and tune it to it's lowest clean and clear booming pitch. Get it as low as you can without it flubbing out. Look for the lowest resonant sound you can get. Stop there. Then do the same with the top head while muting the bottom head. Get em both low and resonant. That's gonna be roughly the base fundamental pitch of the drum. It's happy spot. That's how it naturally wants to be. Then from there you can tweak the bottom head tighter or looser to suit the sound you want. Tweak the top head a little for attack and stick rebound. Heads too tight choke the drum and don't let it breathe. Too much muffling chokes the drum. Forcing the drum to a pitch it doesn't want to be chokes the drum. Let it sound big and huge and then you can manage the ringing or resonance with moongels and mic positioning.
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Vaseline, eh? I could probably borrow some of that from my neighbor...

They should make one of those smiley faces that is vomiting. :)

I appreciate the detailed advice, man. This will be my project once I park the car for the night.
 
NotThatBright said:
You know what? If they ever take me off the no-fly list and I go to England someday, I'm going to one of your shows! :)
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No-fly list? You should stop walking around wearing a turban and a rucksack.

Seriously, though - I'd buy you a pint just for doing what you do honestly and without pretensions. I'd rather hear what you do than something stuffed full of drum replacement, quantizing, re-amping and all that bollocks.
 
Bubba po said:
No-fly list? You should stop walking around wearing a turban and a rucksack.

Seriously, though - I'd buy you a pint just for doing what you do honestly and without pretensions. I'd rather hear what you do than something stuffed full of drum replacement, quantizing, re-amping and all that bollocks.
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Actually it was me flying around on a carpet that made them nervous.

I'm quite sure I don't deserve praise for anything I do, but I appreciate the sentiment. You're also a swell guy. No ocean was large enough to prevent a meeting of the minds between a limey named Bubba and a yank named whatever-that-retarded-name-I-picked-for-myself-is. Cheers!
bubba said:
^^ This x 1000
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I am convinced Greg is the king of all things drums. A mortal gifted with the knowledge previously only possessed by immortal drum gods from the ethereal plane. Everything he's told me to do with my drums and recording setup for them so far has worked, worked well, and worked quickly. Check it out. Not only had I never gotten a real "18-inch tom" tone from this drum, I had also never hit the 18" without my snare drum making just as much if not more noise than the tom. Now not a snare stirs while the 18" is pounded like a hooker at the docks.

https://soundcloud.com/user92696274096/song-55/s-9pwis
 
NotThatBright said:
I am convinced Greg is the king of all things drums. A mortal gifted with the knowledge previously only possessed by immortal drum gods from the ethereal plane. Everything he's told me to do with my drums and recording setup for them so far has worked, worked well, and worked quickly. Check it out. Not only had I never gotten a real "18-inch tom" tone from this drum, I had also never hit the 18" without my snare drum making just as much if not more noise than the tom. Now not a snare stirs while the 18" is pounded like a hooker at the docks.

https://soundcloud.com/user92696274096/song-55/s-9pwis
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Now THAT's how an 18" tom sounds! :D Might need a moongel on it, now, but what an improvement. I'm sure you read Greg's "Recording Drums For Newbies" sticky?. He mentions the importance of tuning drums properly in that. I watched a video by one of the Drum Workshop (DW) technicians to help me. He says all that Greg said, with one departure; he tunes the bottom and top head to work together with the shell, as Greg said, but he tweaks up the top head for the "Doppler" effect, instead. Two approaches with a similar result.
 
Bubba po said:
Now THAT's how an 18" tom sounds! :D Might need a moongel on it, now, but what an improvement. I'm sure you read Greg's "Recording Drums For Newbies" sticky?. He mentions the importance of tuning drums properly in that. I watched a video by one of the Drum Workshop (DW) technicians to help me. He says all that Greg said, with one departure; he tunes the bottom and top head to work together with the shell, as Greg said, but he tweaks up the top head for the "Doppler" effect, instead. Two approaches with a similar result.
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Hell yeah. I was starting to think it was just a shit drum and wasn't capable of producing a good sound. Who woulda thought that it just needed to be maintained properly. I've read that sticky. I have to tune my 12" and 13"- the sounds they are producing are too similar to one another, so the 12's probably loose and/or the 13 tight. Pisses me off... not one of my toms right now is giving me ANY snare rattle. What kind of God would allow this to happen to one of his children? :)

Did you say you are waiting for some mics in the mail? If so, what kind, and what are you going to use them for?
 
NotThatBright said:
Did you say you are waiting for some mics in the mail? If so, what kind, and what are you going to use them for?
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Yeah. I've been wanting to buy a nice condenser mic for recording vocals, and I'd set my sights on a new Rode NT-1. They're about £160.00 ($250 USD) for the pack with shock mount and pop shield. Then I was browsing a facebook site for selling pro audio gear and someone was selling a pair of Rode NT-1A's for £140. They're great mics, but not quite as good as the NT-1; they have been criticised a little for being a bit "bright". I mentioned this dilemma to the wife and she said "buy them, and carry on saving for the NT-1" She's a good woman, so that's what I did :D. I intend to use them in my stereo drum overhead setup and to record vocals.

NotThatBright said:
What kind of God would allow this to happen to one of his children?
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It's exactly this kind of thing that fuelled my atheism - if god exists, why do bad things happen to good drum kits?
 
Bubba po said:
Yeah. I've been wanting to buy a nice condenser mic for recording vocals, and I'd set my sights on a new Rode NT-1. They're about £160.00 ($250 USD) for the pack with shock mount and pop shield. Then I was browsing a facebook site for selling pro audio gear and someone was selling a pair of Rode NT-1A's for £140. They're great mics, but not quite as good as the NT-1; they have been criticised a little for being a bit "bright". I mentioned this dilemma to the wife and she said "buy them, and carry on saving for the NT-1" She's a good woman, so that's what I did :D. I intend to use them in my stereo drum overhead setup and to record vocals.

AKG Pro Audio C1000s



It's exactly this kind of thing that fuelled my atheism - if god exists, why do bad things happen to good drum kits?
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I was raised a Catholic, which is the most tried and true way of making someone an atheist. While He isn't actually up there, I invoke His name a lot. Not just when cursing, but sometimes to explain to people why I was late, or why I disappointed them somehow. Apparently it was His will. Let us pray to the Lord. Lord, hear out prayer.

By definition I guess I'm an atheist, but I would never call myself that. When I think "atheist" I get a mental image of some jerkoff trying to upset people who believe and piss on their parade. I'm happy for people that actually believe in God, provided some scumbag organization isn't taking advantage of them. And provided they don't use "God" as an excuse to do things that adversely affect me. And I hate to see dumb, innocent people get fucked by "companies" selling "God".

So not only can your wife sing, she lets you blow money not just on expensive mics, but allows you to buy more mics in the interim to hold you over? Way to go, looks like you nailed down a good one!

I got a pair of AKG C1000s (for drum overheads) that are due to show up tomorrow.
 
Lol. You guys. Thanks for the compliments but this is just regular drum stuff. Proper head selection and good drum tuning is what separates the men from the boys. Use the right heads for your style and tune the drums to sound delicious. Drums are like any other instrument - they have to sound good before you put a mic anywhere near them. A lot of people, even drummers, don't understand the nuances of tuning a drum and/or they're too lazy to actually do it. But it makes sooooooo much difference.

The 12" and 13" tuning thing is tricky. I don't know how or why drum companies decided that a 12 and 13 would be the standard rack tom sizes, but they did, and it's dumb. They're too close in size. A much smarter set up would have 2 inches in diameter separating the tom sizes. 10, 12, 14, 16 or 12, 14, 16, 18. Whatever. You live with what you have. Keith Moon used 3 or 4 of the exact same size rack toms and just tuned them differently. Keith Moon was an awesome player, one of my favorites, but no one ever freaked out about his actual sound.

So in a perfect world, a 12" and 13" tom tuned perfectly to their respective resonant pitches will have enough difference to be noticeable and sound decent. They're different sized drums with different diameters and depths, so naturally they have to sound different. And they do. They just don't really sound different enough. So here's an instance where you need to fudge one of them a little either way. I personally believe that tuning a small drum to a lower pitch sounds better than tuning a larger drum to a higher pitch, so I tune my 12" to be happy where it is and try to get the 13" lower. You have some room to play a little with a 13" drum because it usually has more depth than a 12", and your next drum, usually a 16" floor tom, is tonally way different and far away in the pitch spectrum. So tune your 12" to sound great, tune your 16" to sound great, and fill the gap with the 13". Or hell, just leave it out altogether. Just because you have 3 or 4 or 5 toms that doesn't mean you have to use them all.
 
NotThatBright said:
I was raised a Catholic, which is the most tried and true way of making someone an atheist. While He isn't actually up there, I invoke His name a lot. Not just when cursing, but sometimes to explain to people why I was late, or why I disappointed them somehow. Apparently it was His will. Let us pray to the Lord. Lord, hear out prayer.

By definition I guess I'm an atheist, but I would never call myself that. When I think "atheist" I get a mental image of some jerkoff trying to upset people who believe and piss on their parade. I'm happy for people that actually believe in God, provided some scumbag organization isn't taking advantage of them. And provided they don't use "God" as an excuse to do things that adversely affect me. And I hate to see dumb, innocent people get fucked by "companies" selling "God".

So not only can your wife sing, she lets you blow money not just on expensive mics, but allows you to buy more mics in the interim to hold you over? Way to go, looks like you nailed down a good one!

I got a pair of AKG C1000s (for drum overheads) that are due to show up tomorrow.
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Pretty much my view of atheism. I look at what the Catholic church is doing in Africa with regard to Ebola, AIDS and homosexuality and it drives me crazy. But lots of good people believe, and it helps them. I hate what fundamentalist Christians are doing to America with their intent to wipe out scientific truth in education. That shit isn't right.


AKG C1000s? Superb! Perfect for the job.
 
Can we please keep religious commentary out of on topic forums?

This is not the place for it.

Greg has spoken the gospel of drum tuning. Please leave it at that. :)
 
Greg_L said:
Lol. You guys. Thanks for the compliments but this is just regular drum stuff. Proper head selection and good drum tuning is what separates the men from the boys. Use the right heads for your style and tune the drums to sound delicious. Drums are like any other instrument - they have to sound good before you put a mic anywhere near them. A lot of people, even drummers, don't understand the nuances of tuning a drum and/or they're too lazy to actually do it. But it makes sooooooo much difference.
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Yes, but sometimes we need telling. I mean, I'm only a guitarist. :D I know a fair bit about intonation, tuning, string choice, amp micing, the behaviour of valve amps and many other things to do with recording a good guitar sound, but drums? Possibly the most frustrating recording experience I've ever had, but persistence and your advice has paid off for me.
 
jimmys69 said:
Can we please keep religious commentary out of on topic forums?

This is not the place for it.

Greg has spoken the gospel of drum tuning. Please leave it at that. :)
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Yeah, sorry. They were just digressions, not a full-on debate. :D
 
Bubba po said:
I hate what fundamentalist Christians are doing to America with their intent to wipe out scientific truth in education. That shit isn't right.
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That'll never happen. Michigan will be under sharia law before the redneck bible thumpers in this country can effect any change furthering a reactionary agenda. There really aren't many of those people. I would imagine some European news outlets exaggerate certain negative things about the US, as some US news outlets exaggerate certain negative things about Europe. Every now and then it will make the news that some fucking dummies in a Podunk town don't want their kids being taught evolution. That's the extent of any damage they can do.
 
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