IEM Question

Mickster

Mickster

Well-known member
I've been trying to find ear plugs for use at band practice. I've tried MANY....all for professional musicians....even a custom set....but they all do the same thing. They do cut down the db's and some are better than others at maintaining fidelity across the frequencies but let's face it.....they mostly cut higher frequencies and cannot really stop lower frequencies very well.

You know how it sounds when you're standing a distance outside a club where a rock band is playing? You can hear the bass drum and guitar much better than the other instruments and vocals. As all of us know....it's VERY difficult to block the bass guitar and bass drum frequencies. They travel through material easier than higher sounds. So...that being said...I'm not suprised that earplugs are not much different. I play a strat in practice and it's very difficult to hear my sound with the ear plugs.

Anyway....ok....so I have to go in a different direction. Most pros use IEM's it seems. I'm guessing they don't block low frequencies any better than ear plugs but they add in the rest at a level that isn't harmful. Do I have that right?

Is there an IEM system that is not plugged into the sound board? In other words....an independant system perhaps with it's own mic...etc? Could I make a system from components? Any ideas??? Educate me!!

Mick
 
Hey spantini...thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate it.

I've tried no less than 9 different hearing protection plugs for musicians and others. None of them get anywhere near a "balanced" sound blocking. A couple are a bit better....but not by much. All of them reduce the levels. They just don't reduce the levels anywhere near evenly across the spectrum. Think about all the threads we've seen here about sound "proofing" and the like. For the most part it's far more difficult to block / attenuate low spectrum / frequency sounds. Ear plugs are small and certainly not built to block band level bass guitars.....especially if you're right next to the amp....but they block cymbals and Strats and the like very well. The result is a terrible muddy sounding band with very little detail. I know....that sounds crazy......but it's true.

I'm assuming IEM's can be EQ'd and maybe some of them even have active sound blocking. I don't know. I'd like to try some sort of active system that doesn't need to be connected to a sound board. I'm thinking I can make my own system with a good mic and some sort of small mixer?

I know......I know. I'll bet someone here can give me an idea.

Mick
 
The only thing I can suggest is for everyone to play through a mixer and each gets their own headphone mix. But that's a whole different approach that may not appeal to the band.
 
Yup...believe it or not that works great. I have a setup like that at home for my musical friends and band mates. I live in a neighborhood that isn't good for live band practice. Here's my setup. I use an old Tascam DP-24 as a mixer....since I had one I used to record with before. 8 inputs and individual effects etc. Electronic drums. I feed the headphone output to an 8 channel headphone amp. Everyone has their own headphones. It sounds great!! The only thing people can hear live is the singer singing into the mic....or the occasional plugged in acoustic guitar. My neighbors must think I go around the house singing a lot.

Mick

PS: I should mention that I did suggest such a setup to the band. After all we're all "aged" and our ears are vulnerable to damage....but alas.....they' want the live effect. Our rehearsal studio is about 20x 20...perhaps a bit bigger. Terrible room. Square. Studio amps are setup by the owner (can't move them much) like a circular firing squad. Everyone is more or less facing everyone's amp. Awful sounding. I can't get the guys to lower the volume much. Can't get lower than the drums anyway......and he plays loud.
 
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I used to use IEMs as a drummer, because some things were on tracks. They are basically ear plugs with small speakers in them, and you can get the volume down to a comfortable level.

I did it two ways:
1. Take a feed from the board with a monitor mix of everyone and the click and backing tracks
2. Mix a recording of the backing tracks and guitars and vocals with the click and just play to that.

Both worked fine. I preferred #2, just because I could turn it down more, so I could hear my drums. Also, this is what I practiced to, so I was used to it.
 
I'm thinking of rigging up a system for the practice studio only for me only. A good mic in the middle of the room (or wherever it sounds best)...plugged into a small mixer/amp that I can wirlelessly send to wireless closed back headphones with good isolation or some wireless IEM's. Seems like a logical solution as long as I get enough sound isolation. Right?

Mick
 
Our practice space was a finished townhouse basement (treated for sound), a long rectangular room about 10ft x 25ft. Drums were against one short end facing down the length of the room. Guitar players were to either side, backs against the wall, and bass was facing the drummer, not quite in the middle of the room. We were in an area of 10ft x 10ft - like your firing squad circle.

I was on bass, the guitar to my left was a Tele and Twin Reverb, guitar to right was Les Paul and Traynor Amp/cab, my bass went through the large horn cabs of our PA along with vocals.

We were loud, but not so loud as to be painful or blow each other away. I'm trying to get a feel for what you're experiencing because our setup was similar. We were "live" as you say - no IEMs or phones - and had no difficulties with individual loudness preventing us from hearing all the instruments and vocals.

You mention your drummer is loud. I know some drummers can be very loud, and not so much loud all over the kit, banging heavily on everything, but the kick and crash. In a small space it can feel like a heavy thump in your chest that could stop your heart from beating and knock the air out of your lungs. Other drummers may be loud on the snare that just takes over the room. In the right space it's great and provides a very solid foundation, but some can be overwhelming, causing others to crank up their volumes so they can hear themselves - sounds like this may be what's going on with you.

Each room has it's own requirements, so just do what you have to do to get where you need to be.
 
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spantini said:
Our practice space was a finished townhouse basement (treated for sound), a long rectangular room about 10ft x 25ft. Drums were against one short end facing down the length of the room. Guitar players were to either side, backs against the wall, and bass was facing the drummer, not quite in the middle of the room. We were in an area of 10ft x 10ft - like your firing squad circle.

I was on bass, the guitar to my left was a Tele and Twin Reverb, guitar to right was Les Paul and Traynor Amp/cab, my bass went through the large horn cabs of our PA along with vocals.

We were loud, but not so loud as to be painful or blow each other away. I'm trying to get a feel for what you're experiencing because our setup was similar. We were "live" as you say - no IEMs or phones - and had no difficulties with individual loudness preventing us from hearing all the instruments and vocals.

You mention your drummer is loud. I know some drummers can be very loud, and not so much loud all over the kit, banging heavily on everything, but the kick and crash. In a small space it can feel like a heavy thump in your chest that could stop your heart from beating and knock the air out of your lungs. Other drummers may be loud on the snare that just takes over the room. In the right space it's great and provides a very solid foundation, but some can be overwhelming, causing others to crank up their volumes so they can hear themselves - sounds like this may be what's going on with you.

Each room has it's own requirements, so just do what you have to do to get where you need to
Click to expand...
 
Hey spantini......you got it. The drummer is loud and even though the band trys to start the rehearsal out at a low volume....the volume quickly creeps up. It becomes a giant squall of sound that overpowers the ability to clearly hear tones and dynamics....not to mention that it over powers the PA so the singer can't hear himself properly. We've had singers come in to audition or just join in and every one of them has said they can't hear themselves well at all. As I mentioned.....the room has a PA but no floor monitors. They really should not be needed in such a small space.

When we play in an open space or a much bigger room where we can spread out properly and there's better acoustics....all is well....even though the drummer still plays very loudly. His dynamics are not the best.....but that's a whole different issue. BTW we pay $25 per hour for the rehearsal room so it's a good deal.

There's got to be a way I can put on some good isolating headphones or IEM's and stick a mic in the room to wirelessly send to the phones.

Mick
 
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Mickster said:
PS: I should mention that I did suggest such a setup to the band. After all we're all "aged" and our ears are vulnerable to damage....but alas.....they' want the live effect. Our rehearsal studio is about 20x 20...perhaps a bit bigger. Terrible room. Square. Studio amps are setup by the owner (can't move them much) like a circular firing squad. Everyone is more or less facing everyone's amp. Awful sounding. I can't get the guys to lower the volume much. Can't get lower than the drums anyway......and he plays loud.
Click to expand...

yup this is exactly the same way we are set up. The only thing that get us to turn down a bit is when the mic’s start squealing. Our drummer doesn’t have a volume knob either
Guy
 
Hi Guy........welcome!

Yeah.....seems to be a common rehearsal space problem. I neglected to mention that our drummer wears earplugs (because he already has tinnitus) that lower the sound by about 15db. They're just run of the mill foam types. He does realize that they make the sound muddy and remove much of the high end...including his cymbals.....but he doesn't care. He just wants to pound away. Obviously that tends to make him play louder. Vicious cycle.

Mick
 
spantini said:
Whad'ya think about a sound shield for the drummer? I think they mainly deflect highs and mids, but probably handle some of the kick sounds too.

www.sweetwater.com

Sound Shields VDS-4X4-K 4 foot Tall 8 foot Wide 4-section Acrylic Shield System

4-panel Drum Shield (4'H x 8'W) with "Mouse Hole" Cable Cutouts
www.sweetwater.com www.sweetwater.com
Click to expand...
You know.....that's not a bad idea. I'll look into that. Perhaps we can buy one and bring it to rehearsal each time. Maybe there's one can that be folded up and transported easily. Or maybe we could make one. Or maybe we can just store one at the rehearsal studio.

I've never played live or otherwise with a drummer using a shield. Maybe someone here has?

Mick

EDIT: Duh.....the link you included seems to answer some of my questions. Thanks spantini!
 
BDJohnston said:
Be aware of the health implications of wireless IEMs (Bluetooth, radio waves, etc.).
Click to expand...
Put it in the snake oil box. They are receivers, so they don't transmit in the main. There are a few devices that have a back channel, but none seem to run any power that makes them a risk. The UK have quite stringent regulations now on RF energy, and standing next to an IEM transmitter running 50mW max doesn;t even tickle the scale. In a way, the protection they offer from loud noises makes them healthier than not using them.

The only issue with IEMs are to do with what is in them. The isolation means you depend on them entirely, so it's no use the guitarist coming up to you and saying loudly in your ear - skip the next song. You won't hear him. Many people insist that you need a live mic or two feeding in, but in my experience, I just learned to live without it, and have studio style audio. The one ear in one ear out doesn't work for me at all.

You could add a mic into an IEM, but that's just the noise on stage - I doubt that would sound nice at all. Remember, IEMs need good mixes. Get it wrong and you cannot play.
 
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Mickster said:
Hey spantini......you got it. The drummer is loud and even though the band trys to start the rehearsal out at a low volume....the volume quickly creeps up.
Click to expand...
LOL very common phenomenon... I'm lucky that this country rock group I'm playing in is seasoned veterans and the drummer is a fanatic on timing and dynamics... we only practice once a month at the leaders house in his garage. He leaves the garage door open. He's got cool neighbors that accept it. But we seem to be able to keep it at a respectful level to be respectful to the neighbors. We practice on the weekends between 10 AM and 2 PM and I never leave with my ears ringing like the old days...

For the win on knocking out all the frequencies evenly.... Old trick when we used to go to live concerts as a yungin Toilet paper wads :eek: Yup could enjoy the bands without the ringing....If only I had done that more during the band rehearsals days back when we rehearsed 5 days a week....I have tinnitis but I am able to ignore it unless I start talking about it ...like right now...dang!
 
rob aylestone said:
Put it in the snake oil box. They are receivers, so they don't transmit in the main. There are a few devices that have a back channel, but none seem to run any power that makes them a risk. The UK have quite stringent regulations now on RF energy, and standing next to an IEM transmitter running 50mW max doesn;t even tickle the scale. In a way, the protection they offer from loud noises makes them healthier than not using them.

The only issue with IEMs are to do with what is in them. The isolation means you depend on them entirely, so it's no use the guitarist coming up to you and saying loudly in your ear - skip the next song. You won't hear him. Many people insist that you need a live mic or two feeing in, but in my experience, I just learned to live without it, and have studio style audio. The one ear in one ear out doesn't work for me at all.

You could add a mic into an IEM, but that's just the noise on stage - I doubt that would sound nice at all. Remember, IEMs need good mixes. Get it wrong and you cannot play.
Click to expand...
If you (think) say so.
 
I would try some good noise cancelling headphones with a mic (using a small mixer). If that worked okay, I would step up to a proper monitor mix in the headphones. Then I might take it a step farther and get some good IEMs for monitoring and put the noise cancelling headphones over them just for the noise cancelling.
 
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