I'd like to digitally record my grand piano... some help getting started? :)

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Bigus Dickus

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I have a grand piano, and after having learned some nice songs (and rather difficult, for me at least), I'd like to record them while I can still play them. I'm never one to do things half-assed (thus, why I bought a grand piano instead of a keyboard), so I'm interested in doing the recording right... well, sort of right anyway - I'd rather not spend a fortune.

I have several computers at my disposal, and plenty of HDD space. I have an U160 SCSI card and can get a SCSI HDD to go with that if it's really going to make a difference relative to IDE.

I have two soundcards currently at my disposal: an SBLive! 5.1 and an M-audio Delta DiO 2496 (link). The Delta DiO only has digital in/out, no analog, so that could be a stumbling block... more on that in a minute.

So, there's what I have to start working with. Obviously I'm asking for advice on PC based recording, and this is all new to me. The Delta DiO card was from another project of mine and at the time I only needed digital transfer, and having both coaxial and optical was attractive.

OK, starting from the beginning. What am I looking at for micing the piano? I've read a few usenet postings about churches micing pianos, but that is more for live performances. Can I get away with a single ambient mic several feet from the piano, or will I need two - one for high strings and one for low - inside the open lid? Any suggestions on mic's here would really be appreciated. I don't know what the difference in cardoid and condenser and other terminology is, so I'm not sure what is best suited for a grand piano. Someone recommended the C-1 (for $250 or so), but for my purposes do I need a studio mic?

On to the preamp. I'm aware that I need a preamp or mixer for the mic(s). The tutorials here on homerecording.com suggested using a mixer instead of a preamp, even if it's only a two channel mixer. I doubt I'll do any other home recording projects, so a two channel would be fine. Recommendations here would be appreciated as well.

Now... to the soundcard. I'm assuming that the SBLive! 5.1 can sample the incoming analog line-level input, but what kind of quality could I expect? The Delta DiO 2496 is 24-bit, which seems nice, but I'd need some sort of D/A converter between the mixer and soundcard I'm guessing. On those lines, are there any mixers that have digital outputs? What kind of price am I looking at for a stereo D/A converter of high enough quality to be noticeably better than what the SBLive! can do? Suggestions here would be most helpful, since this seems to be the biggest mystery to me. If really necessary, I could sell the Delta 2496 and go with another soundcard. Remember though, this isn't to master CD's to sell, but to simply make a recording of my accomplishments. I'm hoping the CD would turn out nice enough to give as gifts and such.

And finally... software. I obviously don't need a multichannel capable program. Two channels will probably do fine, unless you guys know something that I'm not aware of yet. Since the room is small and relatively dead, some DSP may be useful (though I've never been a fan of digital effects... in this case it might be necessary though, since I don't have a concert hall at my disposal).

So there you have it. I really don't have much of a clue about what I'm doing. I have a good basic knowledge of digital recording theory, and some electrical/electronics background, but as far as the specifics of what equipment is good, what is bad, and what combination will make for the most cost effective solution with good results... well, I'm lost.

The art of mic placement, recording techniques, mixing techniques, DSP effects, and so on... well, I guess I'll ask questions along those lines once the basics of equipment are settled.

Thanks in advance! :)
 
Well,
get a pair of realatively cheap mics, a pair of mic stands and mic cords, and a cheap two channel preamp to go with it. (I live in Sweden so I would get the Line Audio small diafragm mics and their two channel preamp, http://www.lineaudio.se, but the other nice folks here can probably recommend some other appropriate gear.) Also get the NTrack recording software from http://www.fasoft.com and use it to record through the SB card. Then try out all strange kinds of microphone placements till you think it sounds good.
If you want to get noticably better sound than with the above the thing you should probably change first is the room. :)
 
Oh, and if you'd really like to spend more money, get a decent pair of monitors. That way you'll have a chance of knowing what you are doing.
 
woohoo! A reply... I'm all excited now! :)

A few more questions:

(1) Will my small room size really restrict the sound quality? I'm not very familiar at all with how piano recordings are made. I have several CD's that were done live, and I'm not sure if the piano mics were separate from the ambient mics for the orchestra or not. I also have several solo piano albums, and I wonder if these were live or done in a studio (I suspect at least some of them were done in a studio). If studio piano recording is done, and works just fine, then I would think a small room isn't such a bad thing. In fact, using the search feature I found some posts in this forum discussing recording a grand in someone's home with cathedral ceilings. The discussions seemed to be leaning towards hanging blankets or such around the piano to actually remove the effect of the room. In that case, I could easily damp my room more than it is, and fairly closely approximate a studio environment. (I'm a single guy... hanging blankets from walls and ceilings is not a problem :) ).

(2) More recommendations on mics and mixers would really be appreciated. I've found that reading reviews only gets you so far if you are completely unfamiliar with a certain topic. Getting advice from people knowledgeable in the field can save time and money. From reading more posts here (again, using the search...) it seems like small diaphragm mics are what are most commonly used for micing a piano. Why is this? What is a small diaphragm's characteristics compared to a large diaphragm, or a cardoid, or condensor, or whatever other types there are?

(3) What kind of quality am I to expect from the SBLive! ? I'm not particularly happy with it as a soundcard in general, so I'm not too optimistic of its results. I suppose I could always try that first and purchase more equipment later if needed? How much am I looking at for an A/D converter that would function as needed between mixer and a digital soundcard?
 
I'll leave the gear stuff to the other guys, and tackle the room.
The ambience of the room is the least of your problems. If it was just for lack of nice reverb tails you could easily just record it dry and add reverb later. (Even though it would never be as good as having recorded it in a neally nice room from the beginning. Piano sound is very much an interaction between the instrument and the room. When you start recording and hear what your room really sounds like you will probably find that the nice sound you think you are getting when you are playing is mostly your brain compensating for the lack of the concert hall it would very much have liked to be in. It will not do that any more when you are listening through speakers.) In a small room your worst enemy is the room modes. Search on this. Room modes are resonances of the room itself making the frequency response of the room extremely uneven in the bass register. (The loudness button on your crappy stereo is nothing compared to room modes.) You cannot change this with blankets. (You can however try to do something about it. I am right now treating a rather small room. When I'm finished its volume will have halved!) What you can do is experiment with the position of the instrument and the mikes in the room. Have fun!

BTW, read Harvey Gersts thread on microphones. (Its topic is "How does polar pattern relate to application" or something along those lines.) Come back when you've read Harveys thread! :D
 
OK, I've read and absorbed the .pdf Gerst recommended on microphone technology in that huge thread. Very informative.

I'm also about 2/3 of the way through the Gerst thread, and it has answered many of my questions.

I don't want to be premature (I'm still hoping he went into more detail on grand micing towards the end), but it seems like I'm looking for a pair of small diaphragm condensor or dynamic mics, either omni or cardioid pattern. Having narrowed it down to that level, can you guys make some recommendations? I understand a lot about the different types of mics, and their uses and placements, and I've got a decent grasp on how the specs will relate to sound quality (which is often very loosely related it seems), but I still don't know jack about particular brands... who makes good stuff for a good price, and what are popular good sounding mics of the type I'm looking for that are often found used (such as on ebay). I could just go digging through ebay for all mics, but I'd rather have some specific models in mind first.

About placement... I'm still hoping that gets covered a bit better. Sounds like if I had a great room to do recording in, then a pair of small dia. omni's or cardioids in an X/Y arangement a couple of feet outside of a high-stick lid would be a good place to start. With a not so great room though, sounds like some deadening in the room, along with placing the mics inside (under) the open lid to record more in the mics near-field will help eliminate some of the room interaction. May not give the best 'concert hall' sound, but would probably produce less annoying hot spots. Not sure if I should be looking at an X/Y config under the lid, or a near coincident arrangement... mono compatibility isn't an issue since this will be a solo recording, with the piano being the only stereo track. Also, I doubt this would ever be heard on TV or radio, so monarual playback just isn't going to happen. In any case... I can play with mic locations - I just need suggestions on what mic to buy. Perhaps I'll start a separate thread in the mic forum?


Still... the biggest questions I was hoping this forum could help with was what to do with the mixer and soundcard part of the deal. Am I really losing quality with an SBLive! soundcard? Would I be wasting money on nice mics if I used that card for the recording? If I went with the Delta Dio 2496, what are my options for A/D converting? Do any mixers have that built in, or am I looking at a seperate unit for the conversion? Would the money be better spent instead on a new soundcard instead of an A/D converter, or would a separate converter give enough of a noticeable improvement in sound quality to justify going that route? Does it matter anyway since this isn't in a concert hall with an $80,000 Steinway?
 
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