i offer free mastering try it now!

[Gizzmo0815]

Glen and I have issue with this one from time to time, I agree and disagree.

The better part of mastering is deciding when one should cross the line and make a mix sound "different". A mixing environment is not always setup optimally for critical listening and there could be quite a few changes with frequency balance and focus on particular parts of the mix, etc. that cross over into mixing territory. Likewise one could say that there are areas of mixing that crossover into mastering territory particularly when a mix has been overcompressed or otherwise crushed.

A mastering engineer should have quite a bit of music under their belt in a variety of styles and have both the experience and taste to know when to leave things alone, when to politely ask if a remix is possible with suggestions on what to improve, and if the former is not the case how to best improve the mixes given in order to make them translate best. It definitely means do no harm, but sometimes one can do harm by not doing anything.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the above. If so, where is the Google translator for SSG to MH?

I think therein lies the rub. Even a lot of the mastering engineers sometimes disagree on what their role is in the process. Which only confuses people who REALLY don't know anything about it. Which is what I think Glen is responding to.

The use of the term "mastering" is very often used to describe processes that actually change the audio from what the mixer did. Which is, I think, what Glen is getting at, because he sees that as mixing.

However from what Masteringhouse just said, it seems that he might consider mastering to be a little more broad than that. Perhaps changes are made only when necessary, but changes CAN be made but still it's a rather different interpretation of the term.

I kind of like the concept that a mastering engineer should go by the doctor's creed "First, do no harm". It makes sense to me because the artist and mix engineer obviously had a vision and what right would the mastering engineer have to change that? BUT! If he can make it better by mixing a little bit, and the artist doesn't have a problem with that. Well cool!

---

The really big problem is when you start talking about this thing called a "home studio" where Joe Blow wants to be able to do all of the above. What Joe Blow doesn't realize is that unless he's got some kind of UNBELIEVABLE natural talent. He's just not going to understand the process to the depth necessary to be able to make it sound as good as the guy who's been doing this for years.

Also if all of the people who have home studios think about how they work on their music. I think that they'd realize how difficult it would be to truly take a song that you've just tracked yourself, and then mixed yourself and go "Ok...now I'm going to master this song, and I'm going to try and keep the mix and artist's goal in mind." The desire to start mixing again would be almost overwhelming...I think most people would fail at it (split personalities might be a benefit here, however).

One of the HUGE benefits of mastering, I suppose, is that you've got a completely new set of eyes on your stuff. And they don't have the same kind of attachment that you do to the material. They can truly take your mix and judge it without any kind of emotional response.

Joe Blow needs an education...and 9 times out of 10 these days he's going to go to a place like homerecording.com to find out what to do.

Hopefully the people there don't turn him off by telling him how bad his stuff sounds over and over again. Hopefully they'll do what Glen just did and outline some really good ways to fix things and improve.

---

Masteringhouse is right I think. To be a mastering engineer you have to be a mixing engineer first, it's where you'd gain the know-how to be able to take a glance at a song and understand what WAS done, and what CAN BE DONE in order to finalize it (or in some cases maybe even make it a little more perfect).

I still think, though, that "Change 'Gon come" with the home recording wave that's upon the world. I think one possibility is that "mastering" as it's generally defined today may start to go away with the sunset of the compact disc. One big thing with digital audio files these days is that people can load their entire collection onto a player (like and iPod) and then turn on a setting which automatically adjusts all of the tracks for volume (look up a program called MP3Gain, or check out this article). How do you master an album to a media that changes the sound of the audio once it's loaded on the player? The loudness war could be rendered obsolete because of this. If people no longer have to worry about the volume knob because their audio player does it for them? WOW!!

If you REALLY don't know anything about it, then you shouldn't be saying that you do (something which didn't really happen here). I think we've established that there are people (even in this thread) that really don't know what mastering is, and they're probably really just mixing. But I think they've learned something about it...I know I have.

But if you ARE trying to learn, there's no harm in trying to do your best at it (just don't ask for money until there's someone out there that thinks you're worth it, which is what people fear Fala might be doing).

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting the above. If so, where is the Google translator for SSG to MH?

Can you hear me now???

You and I do speak the same language, Tom, and I don't disagree with what you said here. But let's be honest, we do both get a bit proprietary about our perspectives, which is understandable. I am all about mixing, and my biggest issue since coming here is the lack of mixing that's actually learned or done by the average newb home recorder, and by the amount they lean on mastering to cover for that. And Mastering guys like you understandably don't see that as as much of a problem as I do, not only because mixing's not your focus, and, honestly, because this trend has to be a revenue boon for the mastering business. So we understandably look at the issue from different perspectives, or maybe more appropriately, we put different levels of import on different aspects of it.

Just to clarify my position, I think we differ on the degree of intent. I'm not saying that mastering can't or doesn't sometimes change the mix for better above and beyond just the making or prepping of a continuous album for release, I'm saying that its not it's *purpose*; or rather that it's not to be used as a reason or an excuse not to finish a mix.

As we talked about together the last time this came up, when you provided that review of your student's mastering efforts on that one mix, I was extremely impressed with the results, and with what you guys could even *do* with a 2mix, and that the three samples were really all excellent jobs. But frankly, I couldn't for the life of me understand *why* you guys would or should have even had to do half the things you did, as good as they may have been, because those things by all rights should have already been done to the mix before it even got to you. By any metric I have ever experienced, that was an unfinished, incomplete mix that you received.

This is what sticks in my throat about this whole subject; the large number of newbs who just phone in the mixing - and to a lesser degree, the tracking - because they erroneously feel that mastering will save them from having to actually do the work.

And you don't have to worry about my bitching cutting into the mastering business, Tom, because it's pretty obvious that I am fighting a losing battle on that front. I'm probably leaving this BBS pretty soon anyway, because this Net2.0 attitude from the Entitlement Gang is just not worth dealing with that often in the short time we have.

G.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I'm not sure I understand why a mastering engineer would be reluctant to do anything that didn't fit under his definition of mastering in a commercial situation.
1st ...... if you're getting paid and there's more to do isn't that more work that you get paid for?
More time = more money?
And if you can take peoples' so-so mixes or incomplete mixes and make them much better wouldn't the good outcomes result in more business via word of mouth as to how good a job you did?

I guess I can see that mixing doesn't fall within the purview of a mastering engineer but does a mastering engineer take some sort of oath that he'll never do anything that doesn't consist of mastering by his definition?

I do see a lot of studios and engineers worried about there being no business for them ..... wouldn't a lack of mixing ability that leads to people letting you fix their mixes be a possible revenue stream?

If what we're doing here is a sort of evangelical attempt to educate the masses in the correct way to mix then I suppose I can see that but aren't you a professional engineer?
I would think you'd WANT more things to do so that you can continue making money?

And ultimately newbs are always gonna be newbs and the majority of them won't ever really 'get it' to a professional degree. So what?
I see the same thing as a player ....... nowadays an awful lot of younger players see the skill as being able to do this or that thing they see on YouTube but lack much ability to just go with the flow in unexpected ways. Does anyone see me complaining about that?
Nope ...... I'm delighted ...... every musician that gets past a certain skill level is just one more guy I've gotta compete with.
I do make suggestions here and the other boards to help players improve but I certainly don't get upset or even care if they don't.

 

[acidrock]

Ummm,can't it just be for fun?

 

[Dogbreath]

Ummm,can't it just be for fun?

NO.

no more peanut butter and pickle sammiches for you.

 

[mshilarious]

All your dBFS are belong to us

 

[Lt. Bob]

Ummm,can't it just be for fun?

well yeah, if you want to say it that way instead of writing several paragraphs.

 

[Gizzmo0815]

This is what sticks in my throat about this whole subject; the large number of newbs who just phone in the mixing - and to a lesser degree, the tracking - because they erroneously feel that mastering will save them from having to actually do the work.

I highly doubt that the newbs are consciously making a decision to phone in anything. More likely (and reasonably) they just aren't good enough to do the things they need to do whether on the performance side, or the processing side. It sure doesn't mean they can't get better at it though. You seem to think that most people get into this stuff because they think it's some kind of cheap way to make money. I think you're seriously underestimating the reasons why people start doing this stuff.

And you don't have to worry about my bitching cutting into the mastering business, Tom, because it's pretty obvious that I am fighting a losing battle on that front. I'm probably leaving this BBS pretty soon anyway, because this Net2.0 attitude from the Entitlement Gang is just not worth dealing with that often in the short time we have.

G.

Entitlement gang . . . W....T....F.

I don't go around call you a member of the "Aversion-to-Change" gang now do I? Nope, I like to think you're just a dude who's got a lot of knowledge that's kinda grumpy. And maybe even the kind of guy that puts people through the wringer just to test their mettle. Whatever...that's your gig bro.

Newbs may be newbs, but they're newbs who have a whole lot of stuff that you didn't. I think you don't give credit to the fact that the younger generation might sometimes be able to pick up and understand things quicker than you did. Not because you were dumb, no one thinks that (though you seem to think that WE think you are). But some of these kids (I'm kind of not a kid anymore but I'll freely consider myself a newb, perhaps a seasoned newb, but a newb nonetheless) are pretty freakin' smart, and JUST MIGHT be able to be talked to like adults. And AS a newb, I wish I could talk to the people "in the know" without being told how ignorant and filled with a sense of entitlement I am. Because frankly...I'm being pretty reasonable.

Dammit this should just be a good thread about what mastering is, and you've helped in your twisted way, so thanks for that...Just stop turning people off to what you have to say by insulting their intelligence (not matter how polite your insults are they're still insults). I think a lot of the problems you're encountering with the people here are just because they don't like how you talk to them.

 

[NYMorningstar]

Education is what it's all about. Mastering is no mystery, it's alot of work though.

Here's a bit we all can use, some of us more than others. Some awesome recommended reading at the end.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
of
HOW TO GET ALONG WITH PEOPLE


Keep skid chains on your tongue. Always say less than you think. Cultivate a low, persuasive voice. How you say it often counts more than what you say.

Make promises sparingly and keep them faithfully, no matter what the cost.

Never let an opportunity pass to say a kind and encouraging word to or about somebody. Praise good work, regardless of who did it. If criticism is needed, offer it gently, never harshly.

Be interested in others---their pursuits, their work, their homes and families. Make merry with those who rejoice, and weep with those who mourn. Let everyone you meet, however humble, feel that you regard him or her as a person of importance.

Don’t burden or depress those around you by dwelling on your minor aches and pains and small disappointments. Remember, everyone is carrying some kind of burden, often heavier than your own.

Keep an open mind. Discuss, but don’t argue. It is the mark of a superior mind to be able to disagree without being disagreeable.

Let your virtues, if you have any, speak for themselves. Refuse to talk of other’s vices. Discourage gossip. It is a waste of valuable time, and can be extremely destructive.

Be careful of another’s feelings. Wit and humor at another person’s expense may do more damage than you will ever know.

Pay no attention to disparaging remarks. Remember, the person who carried the message may not be the most accurate reporter in the world, and things become twisted in the retelling. Live so that nobody will believe them.

Don’t be too eager to get the credit due you. Do your best, and be patient. Forget about yourself, and let others “remember”. Success is much sweeter that way.

Now for the reading.

To improve at mastering I suggest first get Bob Katz Mastering Audio book, the art and the science, and read it a few times. Just awesome stuff in there.

Other books, Microphones: Design and Application by Lou Burroughs(1974), 5.1 Surround Sound: Up and Running by Tomlinson Holman(2000), Acoustics and Psychoacoustics by David Howard and James Angus(2001), Fundamentals of Digital Audio by Alan Kefauver(1999), Digital sound prcessing for Music and Multimedia by Andy Hunt and Ross Kirk(1999), the sound studio: audio techniques for radio, television, film and recording (2003), Mastering Engineer's Handbook by Bobby Owsinski (2000), Principles of Digital Audio by Ken Pohlman (2000) and the Art of Digital Audio by John Watkinson (1988, regularly revised, "The Definitive Industry Bible").

Here's a few good links for info too:
http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html
http://www.nanophon.com/
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/?p=myths
http://www.smpte.org/standards

Here's a place where intolerance is acceptable: http://ap.com/about/intolerance

Thought this might make this long thread easier to swallow

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I don't go around call you a member of the "Aversion-to-Change" gang now do I?

No, you guys have been nowhere near that gentlemanly as that in your name calling towards me. You prefer to mis-characterize me as a grumpy, elitist, stuck up dick who gets his perverted ya-yas off putting newbs through some kind of "ringer". Christ, it's you guys who are twisted enough to come up with that kind of crap. Physicians, heal yourselves. Gizmo, if you REALLY think that's what I'm about, you are one fucking lousy judge of character.

I think you don't give credit to the fact that the younger generation might sometimes be able to pick up and understand things quicker than you did.

There's that insipid ageism card again. Surely you're smarter than that.

I think a lot of the problems you're encountering with the people here are just because they don't like how you talk to them.

I agree with you. I just think we disagree on whether the problem is with how I talk or with you're not liking how I talk.

Well, you don't have to worry about it any more. I'm outta here. If anybody asks why, I'll tell them, "Just ask Gizmo0815." You'll be a freakin' hero! Consider it a parting gift.

G.

 

[Monkey Allen]

I sure got nothing against you claiming to be a mastering engineerQUOTE]

where did he clain that?

I think it's best you just wait in the car lieasleep

 

[Gizzmo0815]

I'm not sure I understand why a mastering engineer would be reluctant to do anything that didn't fit under his definition of mastering in a commercial situation.
1st ...... if you're getting paid and there's more to do isn't that more work that you get paid for?
More time = more money?
And if you can take peoples' so-so mixes or incomplete mixes and make them much better wouldn't the good outcomes result in more business via word of mouth as to how good a job you did?

I guess I can see that mixing doesn't fall within the purview of a mastering engineer but does a mastering engineer take some sort of oath that he'll never do anything that doesn't consist of mastering by his definition?

I do see a lot of studios and engineers worried about there being no business for them ..... wouldn't a lack of mixing ability that leads to people letting you fix their mixes be a possible revenue stream?

If what we're doing here is a sort of evangelical attempt to educate the masses in the correct way to mix then I suppose I can see that but aren't you a professional engineer?
I would think you'd WANT more things to do so that you can continue making money?

I think you're on to something...I just don't think the musical biosphere for home recording has been figured out yet. Tracking is something that can be done at home...and really well actually you just have to know what you're doing, which is where the learning comes (and apparently where the newbs piss off all the people who know how to do it).

Some people will just want to do the recording thing, and they can get really good at it with these tools we're getting now.

Others will really only want to work with the audio once it's recorded (like what a studio engineer does).

And as I mentioned before, the target will probably be some sort of digital format with all of the complications that go along with mixing towards that standard.

How does mastering fit into that picture? I don't think that, in the traditional sense, it does. I think that what you're doing with your album will become the standard. With the possible addition that you can have your stuff mixed by another person perhaps. But the best part is...it could be a person anywhere in the world. Your options for who you pick to do the work are near unlimited...the market just hasn't been filled yet because all of those people are still trying to find the best ways to do it.

And ultimately newbs are always gonna be newbs and the majority of them won't ever really 'get it' to a professional degree. So what?
I see the same thing as a player ....... nowadays an awful lot of younger players see the skill as being able to do this or that thing they see on YouTube but lack much ability to just go with the flow in unexpected ways. Does anyone see me complaining about that?
Nope ...... I'm delighted ...... every musician that gets past a certain skill level is just one more guy I've gotta compete with.
I do make suggestions here and the other boards to help players improve but I certainly don't get upset or even care if they don't.

Perhaps the younger generation is doing it more and more...or perhaps it's always been that way and you just couldn't see it because you didn't have an internet forum to watch it all happen on. I think probably the latter...and I think probably now that everyone is online, and talking about everything...all the people that lived most of their lives NOT having the opportunity to interact with the younger generations this way are making more and more judgments about them, because we're all here in your face, on the computer screen, television, or Youtube.

 

[Monkey Allen]

Ummm,can't it just be for fun?

........bingo!

 

[Gizzmo0815]

No, you guys have been nowhere near that gentlemanly as that in your name calling towards me. You prefer to mis-characterize me as a grumpy, elitist, stuck up dick who gets his perverted ya-yas off putting newbs through some kind of "ringer".

Grumpy, yes. Elitist, not really, that was aimed at Miroslav. And yes this:

Fala, do you mind if I ask you a few questions about your mastering technique and process? (Everybody else, shhhhh! )

1. What do you use to do your PQ code editing?
2. How do you generate your disc error list?
3. How do you generate your track list?
4. What do you feel is the proper ratio of C1 to C2 to CU errors on the premaster?
5. How do you determine track order?
6. How do you determine the reference or guide amplitude to adjust the songs to?
and finally
7. What is mastering?

G.

Is a prime example of putting someone through the wringer. But I didn't say anything about perverted...don't put words in my mouth.

I agree with you. I just think we disagree on whether the problem is with how I talk or with you're not liking how I talk.

I could say the same about you man. You don't like that I don't like how you talk. Tough nuggies...get over it. I STILL don't like it when people try to make others look bad.

Well, you don't have to worry about it any more. I'm outta here. If anybody asks why, I'll tell them, "Just ask Gizmo0815." You'll be a freakin' hero! Consider it a parting gift.

G.

Ok. Sorry 'bout that. If anyone does ask (??) I'll just say I had an issue with Glen's instructional methods, and told him so.

 

[kcearl]

i win

 

[philbagg]

I think you don't give credit to the fact that the younger generation might sometimes be able to pick up and understand things quicker than you did.

Well, as part of the "younger generation", I gotta say I wish that G would slow
the hell down sometimes I can't wrap my head around a lot of the information
he submits to this forum, yet. But, whatever I can understand, I take as good
advice. He's one of the members (along with others) on this forum who's advice
I completely trust.

Not meaning to kiss any ass, just saying that I don't think he had any problems
picking things up and understanding them

 

[miroslav]

No, you guys have been nowhere near that gentlemanly as that in your name calling towards me. You prefer to mis-characterize me as a grumpy, elitist, stuck up dick who gets his perverted ya-yas off putting newbs through some kind of "ringer". Christ, it's you guys who are twisted enough to come up with that kind of crap. Physicians, heal yourselves. Gizmo, if you REALLY think that's what I'm about, you are one fucking lousy judge of character.

I’m amazed at how some people are endlessly still chastising us for something that they are guilty of doing tenfold in this thread!
We pretty much stopped talking to Fala on page 3…when he finally coughed up the “I’m no pro, I’m practicing” remark (which he didn’t have any inclination to do initially)….but everyone else is justified in their personal attacks for 5 pages following, with cheap name-calling and cheap junior high, schoolyard gang-ups.

Grumpy, yes. Elitist, not really, that was aimed at Miroslav.

Anyone that thinks I’m elitist is just letting the little green monster guide their views.
Fuck…I don’t have the real money, political power or social position to even come close!
Everything I’ve learned came from lots of effort and few presumptions, and everything I’ve earned came from working, saving and not indulging in typical creature features and superficial luxuries.
Some people go on vacation to the Bahamas…I buy amps, guitars, mics....
When the whole world is out having beers on Saturday night…I’m overhauling and cleaning my console.

No…my audio views are not elitist…they are just hard earned and fine-tuned from many years of chasing a blind dream...and it’s taken me a long time to get to this point where I feel I have some solid knowledge and experience, and most of it came before there was Google and Internet audio forums where faux-knowledge and experience abounds!!!

Maybe Glen and I come off jaded at times...but it’s because of the endless flow of newbies who just don’t seem to really care about audio, who are just looking for a shortcut answer, and more importantly, have very dismissive or even mocking attitudes when confronted with some hard facts and realities about quality audio.
Otherwise...we still have more passion about audio than most of the people on these forums, and you know…Glen does a LOT of helping and teaching around here…and while this is only my first year at HR, I’ve typed countless, detailed “how to” posts for newbies…stuff we don’t have to do…but I guess we do it because we are grumpy, elitist dicks who like to demean newbies every chance we get.

The real irony here…
In the end…everyone pretty much has said to Fala EXACTLY what Glen and I were saying about his so-called “mastering” effort back on the first few pages, but you guys all got a free pass and we got the shit....


kcearl....just hang on, as soon as the Cracker Jack box is empty, you'll find your prize.

 

[kcearl]

I’m amazed at how some people are endlessly still chastising us for something that they are guilty of doing tenfold in this thread!
We pretty much stopped talking to Fala on page 3…when he finally coughed up the “I’m no pro, I’m practicing” remark (which he didn’t have any inclination to do initially)….but everyone else is justified in their personal attacks for 5 pages following, with cheap name-calling and cheap junior high, schoolyard gang-ups.



Anyone that thinks I’m elitist is just letting the little green monster guide their views.
Fuck…I don’t have the real money, political power or social position to even come close!
Everything I’ve learned came from lots of effort and few presumptions, and everything I’ve earned came from working, saving and not indulging in typical creature features and superficial luxuries.
Some people go on vacation to the Bahamas…I buy amps, guitars, mics....
When the whole world is out having beers on Saturday night…I’m overhauling and cleaning my console.

No…my audio views are not elitist…they are just hard earned and fine-tuned from many years of chasing a blind dream...and it’s taken me a long time to get to this point where I feel I have some solid knowledge and experience, and most of it came before there was Google and Internet audio forums where faux-knowledge and experience abounds!!!

Maybe Glen and I come off jaded at times...but it’s because of the endless flow of newbies who just don’t seem to really care about audio, who are just looking for a shortcut answer, and more importantly, have very dismissive or even mocking attitudes when confronted with some hard facts and realities about quality audio.
Otherwise...we still have more passion about audio than most of the people on these forums, and you know…Glen does a LOT of helping and teaching around here…and while this is only my first year at HR, I’ve typed countless, detailed “how to” posts for newbies…stuff we don’t have to do…but I guess we do it because we are grumpy, elitist dicks who like to demean newbies every chance we get.

The real irony here…
In the end…everyone pretty much has said to Fala EXACTLY what Glen and I were saying about his so-called “mastering” effort back on the first few pages, but you guys all got a free pass and we got the shit....


kcearl....just hang on, as soon as the Cracker Jack box is empty, you'll find your prize.

I love your "us" and "me and Glen" speeches...Glens the one with any knowledge to offer (though Ive never heard any of his work..links? ) you are merely the sidekick Miroslaver....no ones paying you any respect here...lol

still you are trying to be more than you are...you go man, its nice to see folks like yourself try to better themselves..

Im trying not to bring this down to Cave level but if you keep name checking me dude you'll end up spanked again

 

[LemonTree]

I loved the part where the old timer got his bell end out and cock slapped the new guy

 

[kcearl]

lol @ bell end....