I need assistance recording a large group of small children, please

[Robert D]

Well, This is quite the challenge. I recently recorded a pre school circle time CD, so I can give you some advice based on fairly direct experience. Ok, here's how I would approach it - doing a headphone mix for that many kids is too cumbersome and expensive, but recording your orchstration as played over a PA won't sound particularly good either. Instead, create a minimal cue mix to air over the PA, containing just whatever it needs to keep the kiddies in time and on pitch. Augment this with some baton (or just hands) to give the kids a visual meter too. Then mix in the additional instruments afterwards, in their full fidelity and seperation. I would definitely recommend stereo recording, spaced pair, mics up high, best singers forward. You may also want to arrange them into groups by Alto, soprano, etc. with best voices of each grouping forward. You'll get a much more interesting recording this way.
The Oktava mics you mentioned are very good, much better than the price they sell for would lead you to believe. Make sure you get your levels set up before you start tracking, on the loudest part of the loudest piece.
Good luck and have fun, RD

 

[philboyd studge]

Julia,

Are you confused yet?

 

[wjgypsy]

here's you check list!

1. a cage for your mic to be safe (just incase)
2. seaker phone (those little people can get loud)
and last but not lest: alot of rope to tie up those little @#%$*!!!

man, i hate little kids (i'm not a kid a'm a "pre-adult") and when they get arould mics, they get wild.

any way, if you only have 20-40 headphones, then give them to some of the kids, and the rest can just sing along with the kids that have the headphones.

 

[Shailat]

It's a bit complicated...so many kids...very young...no recording conditions....

On the groups that you can, stick to using the headphones. If they are old enough they can handle it. True its work for you but with basic explnations it can be done to benefit your recording.

I still suggest a single mic at omni if you can use the headphones
* It will simplify things for you
* It will save you money
* If you record say 20 and then another 20 and pan the 2 parts apart from each other you'll get a nice blend that you can play with afterwards. It will NOT sound as if you are listening to a single eared recording as somebody mentioned before.

If on some of the groups headphones are not an option, then you might have to get two mics (look into renting).
You can try this but I cant guarantee it will work in your gym... record comming from the monitors the orchestration only. Then play for the kids the Playback of your instrumental through monitors. Then after you have the recording ( I would suggest an X-Y) see if you can flip the phase by running the orchestration you did against the tracks that have the vocals AND the Orchetration in them and see if you can minimize the orchestration by having some phase cancalation. This has worked for me but in more controlled conditions.

Another solution is still to make a recording of 30-40 kids with headphones and have them sing the song, then record with the rest of the group playing it through the monitors and have them sing along.....In the mix you use the main headphone group as the basic tracks and under them in volume you use the rest of the group to give it a fuller sound.

Robert D's solution isnt a bad one either. Make a scratch mix of minimal elements to record the vocals.....

 

[Julia]

Wow! Thank you all so much...now...

I am going to print out these responses and study them...after which I'm sure I'll come back tomorrow with more questions.

I've got to also study what X-Y is, etc...I'll find that online somewhere, I'm sure. I also have no idea what is meant by "sequences", and I am wholly confused about which mic(s) to buy, but only because I just need some more time to really study your thoughts and suggestions.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you all taking the time to do this. Thank you so very much indeed.

You're all very nice to work with me to figure this out.

I thank you, and the little brats...oops...I mean children thank you.

I'm kidding...they're lovely, really. Most of 'em, anyway.

Thanks again.

I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow.

 

[wes480]

maybe ECM 8000s would work well? definitely a good budget mic...

A friend of mine just recorded a 40 or so person chorus with a pair of them and got good results. 175 would give you less of an "image" maybe, but they should be able to still pick up a nice big sound...

i'd check them out.

they are just condensor omnis..at about 40 bucks a piece.

 

[Julia]

wes...

Thank you, Wes.

Did your friend record the chorus live? If so, how?

I had an idea yesterday based on one responder's suggestion that I record the children acapella, thus removing the issue of the echoing orchestration.

This led me to consider putting headphones on maybe 10-12 kids (my headphone amp accepts 12 sets without further distribution...it has 4 separate amps, with 3 outputs each)...and letting THEM sing along with the orchestration they hear in their headphones, and having the remaining children simply sing along with those children, acapella. This way, they'll be in time and in TONE, hopefully, with the children following the music.

Sensible or ridiculous?

Also, my BR-8 records only 2 channels at a time. So...here's my big question...

QUALITY wise, is it better to use only two mics and record straight to the BR-8, or use MORE mics, through a mixer, and record into the BR-8 via the mixer?

Thank you all so very much for all of your help and guidance.

Julia

 

[darrin_h2000]

I would bunch the more talented kids together and only record them that way. then use one omni for the group wearing headphones then record basses only then baratones then tennors then altos then sopranos . with a good two track of the orchestra. then you can fool the bad singers into thinking they were on the thing. by having a dummy session for them (they will feel supurior for nailing it in one take).

 

[Julia]

MIC questions...cardiod vs. omni, stereo vs. single, quality, etc.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful contributions to my dilemma.

I apologize for asking more questions, but if you don't mind, I'm still really confused about recording with a pair of cardioid mics vs. a single omni mic, and I'm confused about which mics are best.

Specifically, I've had varying opinions on the following, and would just like to clarify, based on how I've decided to try to record the project.

First, what I've decided to do is record as many children as I can using headphones, so there will be no bleed of the orchestration. I may have a group of 40, for instance, with 20 of them outfitted with phones, and the other 20 can just sing along with the first 20 who are following the orchestration. The 20 without phones won't hear the orchestration, but they will hear the voices of their headphoned classmates.

I'm also going to try to do the recording in our school chapel for better accoustics.

So...with all of that in mind, and the idea of playing the orchestration through monitors, etc. out of the way entirely...

I need to know the following:

Do I need two cardioid condensers recording as a stereo pair, (one left, one right, up high-ish on a boom stand pointing in?)...

Or do I need one single omni, and if you choose the omni, then please let me know if I need to encircle it with children all the way around the mic, or simply place it in front of the group of kids.

The mics I'm considering based on all this great advice are:

pair of Octava 012's
OR

pair of Marshall MXL603's

 

[Julia]

MIC questions...cardiod vs. omni, stereo vs. single, quality, etc.

Thank you all so much for your thoughtful contributions to my dilemma.

I apologize for asking more questions, but if you don't mind, I'm still really confused about recording with a pair of cardioid mics vs. a single omni mic, and I'm confused about which mics are best.

Specifically, I've had varying opinions on the following, and would just like to clarify, based on how I've decided to try to record the project.

First, what I've decided to do is record as many children as I can using headphones, so there will be no bleed of the orchestration. I may have a group of 40, for instance, with 20 of them outfitted with phones, and the other 20 can just sing along with the first 20 who are following the orchestration. The 20 without phones won't hear the orchestration, but they will hear the voices of their headphoned classmates.

I'm also going to try to do the recording in our school chapel for better accoustics.

So...with all of that in mind, and the idea of playing the orchestration through monitors, etc. out of the way entirely...

I need to know the following:

Do I need two cardioid condensers recording as a stereo pair, (one left, one right, up high-ish on a boom stand pointing in?)...

Or do I need one single omni, and if you choose the omni, then please let me know if I need to encircle it with children all the way around the mic, or simply place it in front of the group of kids.

The mics I'm considering based on all this great advice are:

pair of Octava 012's
OR

pair of Marshall MXL603's,
OR

pair of Behringer ECM8000's
OR

a Studio Projects C1 or a pair of STudio Projects B1

OR

something else entirely!

Thanks very much again.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

"First, what I've decided to do is record as many children as I can using headphones, so there will be no bleed of the orchestration. I may have a group of 40, for instance, with 20 of them outfitted with phones, and the other 20 can just sing along with the first 20 who are following the orchestration. The 20 without phones won't hear the orchestration, but they will hear the voices of their headphoned classmates."

I think you're asking for trouble. For starters, which ones get the phones? What do you say to the ones that don't? How will you find which ones will sing off key with headphones on before recording? There will be a tendancy for those with headphones on to sing behind the note (or late), and those without will reactionary and much slower still since they have no reference. Is your intent to record them in small groups till you have all 175?

You'll get a really clean recording though.

You might want to take a step back and ask yourself what you're market is. Is it sales to parents, friends and realatives? If so, they buy the same amount of CD's converted from a cassette recorded on a boom box.

Pesonally I'd try and make the kids comfortable, line 'em up in the way they're used to, aim some speakers at them so they can hear the pre recorded music, aim a couple of 012's their way and hit record. If I were using your BR-8 I'd have already dubbed the precorded material to it and play it back from there to the p.a/monitors, that way your 'songs' are already laid down and easier to deal with when all the kids are around. What the kids would be hearing would be 'cue'- a signal to the headphones of a pre recorded track that won't be re recorded with the new track. If you don't have a cue out jack on the machine, you can use the headphone jack to the p.a. and hopefully speaker bleed will be minimized by placing the speakers away from the mics. When I recorded those grammer school kids we just turned down the monitor volume till they complained they couldn't hear, then turned it up some.

 

[Julia]

Please allow me to clarify this once and for all...

Friends,

I am NOT trying to record all 175 children at once, nor am I trying to record even a single song with 175 children singing.

Each class (or in some cases each group of two classes) has its own song.

Translation, at any given time, I will be recording 20-40 children, and no more.

I do not need to record 40 of them, and then add another 40 to those voices, and then another 40, etc.

I need to record a song with 20 children singing.

Then I need to record ANOTHER, separate, completely different song with, say, 32 children.

Then I need to record another group of 40 children singing a completely different song altogether.

I hope I've clarified myself...I do apologize for the difficulty in communicating my goals here adequately.

I just need some more mic information at this point. So many mics, so little time.

Thanks again, one and all.

Julia

 

[philboyd studge]

Oh.

 

[darrin_h2000]

One ECM 8000 in a room where the sound is best represnted recording each of the parts seperately should be good enough, the SP B3 in omni will be better.

 

[Julia]

Mic question...

If I use an omni-directional mic, would you also suggest that the children stand in a circle around it? Is that the pattern used for omni-directional recording?

Would two be better than one? And if so, what pattern would I use with two omni mics...the X-Y others mentioned?

Thanks!

 

[Richard Monroe]

I like Mixerman's version. You can use either cardiod mics in X-Y or spaced omni's. Actually, given your situation, the simplest thing might be to get a one-point stereo electret mic, which works without phantom power (it has a battery). It should go straight to the BR-8, no mixer, no preamp. Play the music on whatever sound system you can come up with, don't point it straight at the mic (try at an angle), then adjust the level of the sound system until the balance between it and the children is acceptable. One point mics are made by SONY in particular. $100 gets you adequate, $300 is top of the line. I'd say break down and get a good one-point, because it will travel with the BOSS and make good remote recordings wherever you go. I think that you will be rewarded with better sound quality through simplicity. On that note, you need only one set of headphones, good ones, for you. Another $100, then you can be a engooneer. Best of luck.-Richie

 

[ZPphreak]

Julia, If you're still around.. I am Wes' friend that did the choral recording with the ECM 8000's

I have uploaded the recording here: http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1934&alid=264

I recorded in a fairly large room with reflective walls all concrete. 18' high ceiling. The reverb in that room is pretty nice IMO. I however have no reccomendations for recording your accompaniment track. I recorded the choir with two of teh ECM8000's spaces about 20 - 25' apart and on tripod stands about 10' high. I intend to expand my choral micing to include to MXL 603s's in a XY setup centered in front of the choir. I want to add these two mics to the setup so I will be recording from 4 microphones at a time. I use a Roland VS-880 VXpanded which allows me to record 4 tracks at a time. you could of course just run the mics through the mixer first. The ECM 8000's are condensors so you will need phantom power.. I suggest running them through the mixer you noted that you have access to use.

I posted in the MP3 forum with my choral recording if you'd like to search in there you will find my full explanation of my setup on that recording. I mixed the recording on my PC using Sound Forge.

-Brent

zpphreak@thesaltines.com

 

[Julia]

Thanks, Brent!...by the way...

The recording is LOVELY! Thanks for sharing it, and for sharing your method of recording the choir.

You did a fine job, and I enjoyed listening to the choir immensely.

Thank you very much, indeed.

I wish you continued success and enjoyment with your recording, and thank you again for explaining to me how you were able to capture the choir so beautifully.

Julia

 

[ZPphreak]

[No message]

 

[ZPphreak]

Thanks Julia!

My pleasure Julia. I'm glad that my input helped you. I would love to hear your kids when you get the recording done.. post here in the mic forum or send me an email when you get a mp3 up on the internet...

-Brent