I love it loud

[misterDX]

Hi there!
Ok, let's go to the point: i have a wave in front of me, a song i am mastering, i see it goes up to -0.1 DB so i fugure it should be loud enough. The average is well above -3 DB.

I compare it to a comercial song that has a wave that occupies less space but has more sound.

I just want a hint, i am not asking you to explain it all. Just a hint.
And why if i add 3 to 4 DB it shows clips that i don't hear.
My ear say that there is no clips, no distorsion, just more volume. but sound forge does not agree.

I am using a chain of effect: compression 6:1, EQ, limiter and dither. In that order. I boost my volume around 6 DB using the EQ and limiter around -3 DB to give you a quick picture.

PLease please tell me now, is there something I should know?

 

[sjoko2]

as requested ... just a hint
Its called professional mastering

 

[misterDX]

I would have expected something like 'use dual compression' or else. Anyways..

 

[sjoko2]

It was merely the smallest possible of hints..........
What are you using for your compression and limiting?

 

[misterDX]

I am mastering an album that will hit the market here in Quebec this summer and i know i sound like a crazy guy but since i did all the recording and mixing i want to be the last one to touch to the sound, Im childish like that. I read books from SOS, i learned a lot fomr Paul White for instance. My mxies sounds great, i need lonly few DB and it will be allright. I swear.

I use Sound Forge fx for compression and limiting. I put the limiter at the very last of the chain. I tried dual compression since last post and i gain few DB's right there.

My concerned was more why it shows peaks that I don't hear? Could it be a SF issue? Those peaks are non-perceptible?

Makes me wonder..

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

I am mastering an album that will hit the market here in Quebec this summer and i know i sound like a crazy guy but since i did all the recording and mixing i want to be the last one to touch to the sound, Im childish like that.

That would be a big mistake.... if it's for general release I would send it to a proper mastering house.... they have the proper facilities to hear any deficiencies in the sound quality, as well as the experience to know what to touch and what to leave alone.

DIY mastering on the same setup that a project was tracked and mixed in is asking for trouble. Impartial ears to analyze your mixes are a virtual necessity for good results.

 

[Track Rat]

Sjoko is correct about pro mastering but if you want to try it your self, try Waves L1 Ultra Maximizer or the Timeworks Mastering Compressor. You can squash the life out of most anything with either of those.

 

[Cyrokk]

My concerned was more why it shows peaks that I don't hear? Could it be a SF issue? Those peaks are non-perceptible?

Makes me wonder..

Could it be your monitors? What kind of studio monitors are you listening through?

 

[roman]

Trick here is LIMITING, not just boosting volume.

If you use, for example the Waves L1 or Timeworks mastering compressor, you'll be able to achief what you need.

In short you'll boost the AVERAGE volume, not the peaks (remember RMS?), which will sound much stronger in total volume. The thing is, you'll be squashing dynamics (hell, it's compressing/limiting right!) so be gentle.

For a snare drum for example it is not wrong to have it clipped, sometimes it even sounds better. Remember what a snare drum makes a snaredrum...Right, the CRACK.

But again, be gentle.
Oh, have a good listen to CALIFORNICATION from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.... listen again and be warned!
That album is MAJOR CLIPPING and if you listened good, you might have heard that almost the entire album is in MONO.
The first time I heard this album I was chocked.. damn, this sound horible! (go ahead and check the wave in some wave editor (eg cool edit) and SEE what you hear)

ro

 

[misterDX]

Thanks for all your feedback folks. Roman post was the most helpful thing i read in months. Keep it up dude!

I feel more comfortable with my peaks. I have 6 clips per chorus (snare kicks) and i mean to have them real strong, like bombs, i did add few bombing sound in the song which is about war. I guess if what i hear is good it's all good.

I will try the plugs above mentionned and study Californication.

Again, Roman, you make it possible for me to go on with my work, your name should be in my thank you list!

 

[fenix]

Sjoko is correct about pro mastering but if you want to try it your self, try Waves L1 Ultra Maximizer or the Timeworks Mastering Compressor. You can squash the life out of most anything with either of those.

Um...why not the L2?

 

[roman]

Thanks for all your feedback folks. Roman post was the most helpful thing i read in months. Keep it up dude!

I feel more comfortable with my peaks. I have 6 clips per chorus (snare kicks) and i mean to have them real strong, like bombs, i did add few bombing sound in the song which is about war. I guess if what i hear is good it's all good.

I will try the plugs above mentionned and study Californication.

Again, Roman, you make it possible for me to go on with my work, your name should be in my thank you list!

Glad I could help you!

 

[bleyrad]

if you are using look-ahead limiting, and are sure that it's stopping everything under 0db, then you're not actually having digital clips.

the problem is in the way audio software detects clips. digital audio can go up to 0db, never over. a sound above 0db will be pushed back down to 0db (even without a limiter), and a round peak will as such be made into a flat line at 0db. the reason that these flat lines cause such a horrible clipping noise is because of their shape... ever heard a sqare wave? well, clipping creates a part of a square wave.

anyway, the audio software has to have some way to detect these clips, and to distinguish them from regular un-clipped audio that happens to reach 0db (audio CAN reach 0db without clipping, it just can't go OVER). in order for your "clip" light to shine, a certain number of conditions must be met, conditions which the software uses to be reasonably certain that the waveform actually is clipped.
with most software, this just entails treating a certain number of samples (ie 15) in a row that are all at 0db as being "clipped". this is usually a very reliable way to detecting digital clipping.

unfortunatly, limiting can falsely trip this clip detection system. limiting squashes the transient to 0db the same way that a simple digital clip does, except it rounds it out, so it doesn't have that square wave distortion effect, and you can't hear that awful harmonic distortion as a result.
so, there may still be a lot of samples at 0db within a certain time period. the software will say "ok, i've got 15 samples at 0db, it must be clipped" and turn on the clip light, when in reality, your audio is fine.


that is the drawn-out technical explanation for your clip light turning on when your audio is fine. rest assured, if your limiter is set and functioning properly, and you don't hear clipping, then there is none.

 

[Meshuggah]

oh yeah... the L2 can give you the volume you desire..

Waves Mastering Bundle.. A very nice set of plugins.

 

[scottboyher]

If this is a serious project I don't understand why you would risk trying to master it yourself.

 

[mixsit]

...<snip>...
anyway, the audio software has to have some way to detect these clips, and to distinguish them from regular un-clipped audio that happens to reach 0db (audio CAN reach 0db without clipping, it just can't go OVER). in order for your "clip" light to shine, a certain number of conditions must be met, conditions which the software uses to be reasonably certain that the waveform actually is clipped.
with most software, this just entails treating a certain number of samples (ie 15) in a row that are all at 0db as being "clipped". this is usually a very reliable way to detecting digital clipping.

unfortunatly, limiting can falsely trip this clip detection system. limiting squashes the transient to 0db the same way that a simple digital clip does, except it rounds it out, so it doesn't have that square wave distortion effect, and you can't hear that awful harmonic distortion as a result.
so, there may still be a lot of samples at 0db within a certain time period. the software will say "ok, i've got 15 samples at 0db, it must be clipped" and turn on the clip light, when in reality, your audio is fine.


that is the drawn-out technical explanation for your clip light turning on when your audio is fine. rest assured, if your limiter is set and functioning properly, and you don't hear clipping, then there is none.

Would setting the output ceiling to -.3 dbfs be a way to test and prevent this?
Wayne

 

[bleyrad]

quite probably, but it depends on the audio program... some may have their detection threshold set as low as .5, maybe even lower if a very high number of samples in a row reach it .... i don't claim to know the inner workings of the programs.

 

[misterDX]

If this is a serious project you don't understand why I would risk trying to master it myelf Scottboyher?

Because it's actually fun!

Peace.

 

[Doug H]

I've heard that audio can withstand a few slicpped samples here and there without crackling.

 

[volltreffer]

I love it loud, too, but I'd love it even more if I had the possibility to get my stuff mastered... You will prolly not hear what you should hear. And it IS unlikely that there is nothing else to improve than to get it louder. But if you haven't heard it on first pass why should you on second?

The second thing is: any dynamics on the mix can completely change your perception of the song... And it is VERY likely that you won't hear it as you know the song too good...

aXel