Hybrid drum set recording!?

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Jeries

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Hi all
This is my first post

I'm a pro guitarist and I've always had a home studio

Decided I wanted to start recording real drums and have been amassing the necessary gear...

here's a question....

Getting toms to sound good, and not wanting them interfearing with overheads/cymbals...

does anyone have experience with- or is it an interesting or stupid idea to do this...

record real snare, real bass, and real cymbals but have electric toms?
I have real toms but if i triggered them (got a set of mesh heads w triggers)
i could get a really great tom sound, no one would know they were fake because of the real snr and cymbals-- and there would be no bleed on overheads or whatever is recording cymbals.

does this make sense? any thoughts?

next step is trying the right mics/mic positions on the toms to get what i want out of them
i've just been experimenting about a day on this- just got my snake


GEAR:
I use a DIGI003+ with a Presonus lightpipe
have a 6pc tama set

for mics- i'm actually using 8 SM57s- actually- after i found out they're not too far off and have similar frequency responses- i actually got 8 knock off 57s from china for $15 bucks each.
i have many other mics/condenser/ribbons/etc... still have to work on the toms sound wise- and a hybrid tom kit came to mind


thoughts?
 
i always think the concept of overhead mics is to capture the kit as a whole. adding spot-mics when needed
 
Dr.SpringReverb said:
i always think the concept of overhead mics is to capture the kit as a whole. adding spot-mics when needed
Click to expand...

Exactly. The toms are supposed to "interfere" with the cymbals, etc....Overheads are meant to capture the kit as a whole. If you want more toms, mic them as well. Not to say you can't use electronic toms, but I don't see a need fo that.
 
The overheads really add to the tom sound, the tom mics sound OK but the toms really come alive when the overheads are added.

If this is not happening for you, then you need to look at how you are micing up the kit, the space you are recording in and the kit itself.

Alan.
 
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witzendoz said:
The overheads really add to the top sound, the tom mics sound OK but the toms really come alive when the overheads are added. If this is not happening for you, then you need to look at how you are micing up the kit, the space you are recording in and the kit itself. Alan.
Click to expand...

Agree 100% with this. A little more experimentation is in order.
 
everyone is right
this is the first time i've dove into recording drums on my own- i'm not happy with the tom sound as is... so i have some work to do.

I may do some experimenting with heads- I have all new ambassadors on the bottom and pinstripes at the top- with O rings, and gels and all that stuff here and there- just not getting what i'm looking for...

even though what i'm looking for was done/recorded with those exact heads.
 
Hey there,

I'm in a similar boat to you Jeries. I'm a guitarist (primarily) but I've been looking at mic'ing and recording my Sonor kit.

So far I've found a 2 mic method, and a 4 mic method, and of course the full mic set up.

Starting with the 4 mic setup (that's where I'm at) you get one on the kick, one on the snare, and two overheads. I believe this is called the Glynn Johns method. Positioning the overheads is key. They will pick up both the cymbals and the toms. The interesting part is the angles and distances that you are using.

ANGLE:
So if you are using a \ / style format, where the mics are outside of the kit and pointing down into it, you will get the cynbals, toms, snare, and a bit of the kick drum. However if you position them from the center of the kit pointing outwards / \ you will get the cymbals and toms, with less snare and kick.

DISTANCE:
The closer to the source the less room reflections you will get, however, getting closer means that the mic will focus more on one or two things rather than the whole right or left side. Yeah its a juggling act.

FOCUS:
Just remember whatever sound source you point the mic at, it will not only pick that up that target, but any other sound sources along that same path, so positioning is where the experimenting comes in.


If you are using tom mics, don't worry about the toms blending into your overheads. You can simple play with the mix of the tom mics and overheads and tailor it to your liking in your mix.

I just picked up the Presonus 1818vsl for its 8 mic pres. So here's my plan for the future set up: 1 = Kick, 2 = Snare, 3 = H tom, 4 = M tom, 5 = L tom, 6 = Left Overhead, 7 = Right Overhead, and 8 = Hi-Hat.

I hope this helps in some way. Good luck and keep experimenting. :thumbs up:
 
Raymeous said:
Starting with the 4 mic setup (that's where I'm at) you get one on the kick, one on the snare, and two overheads. I believe this is called the Glynn Johns method.
Click to expand...

Not quite, it has 4 mics but the overheads are not the norm. Link.

Alan.
 
Why not record your kit and add Tom sample to enhance your toms. In Protools its called sound replacer. Just double your Tom track and replace the original sound with a sample. Then blend with your original Tom track. I've used this from time to time when necessary.

Elton
 
Elton123 said:
Why not record your kit and add Tom sample to enhance your toms. In Protools its called sound replacer. Just double your Tom track and replace the original sound with a sample. Then blend with your original Tom track. I've used this from time to time when necessary.

Elton
Click to expand...

Samples, replacer, double tracks? Please!

I can tell you this, back in the early 90's when I was starting my studio with little gear, I recorded an album of a friends band. The kit was miced with. Kick SM58, Snare SM57, toms Cheap Audio Technica ball mics (white colour), overhead (1), Toshiba condenser, hats Toshiba condenser. The drum sound on that album is great. Good Kit, Good drummer, recorded in a games room with a bit of treatment (maybe a little on the dead side), tracked through a Tascam M2524 console to a Tascam MSR16S analog 16 track. When mixing I had 1 reverb, 1 stereo compressor for the whole thing and it was mixed to 16bit DAT tape. This is all we had so it had to do.

Have a look at why your drums don't sound right instead of trying to fix it in the mix. A good place to start after the room, kit, player, is are the overheads in phase with the tom / snare mics?

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
Samples, replacer, double tracks? Please!

I can tell you this, back in the early 90's when I was starting my studio with little gear, I recorded an album of a friends band. The kit was miced with. Kick SM58, Snare SM57, toms Cheap Audio Technica ball mics (white colour), overhead (1), Toshiba condenser, hats Toshiba condenser. The drum sound on that album is great. Good Kit, Good drummer, recorded in a games room with a bit of treatment (maybe a little on the dead side), tracked through a Tascam M2524 console to a Tascam MSR16S analog 16 track. When mixing I had 1 reverb, 1 stereo compressor for the whole thing and it was mixed to 16bit DAT tape. This is all we had so it had to do.

Have a look at why your drums don't sound right instead of trying to fix it in the mix. A good place to start after the room, kit, player, is are the overheads in phase with the tom / snare mics?

Alan.
Click to expand...

Alan, you honestly have the best anecdotes and i genuinely love reading them :thumbs up: (they entertain me considerably better than late night tele!)

I'll also second the "it's less an issue of what you've got as how you use it". One of, if not the best drum sound i ever got was a couple of years back on a friends EP. We needed a space to record drums and one of my mates ran an old pub (it's the second oldest in nottingham although there's a couple of other pubs who claim the same). We asked him nicely if we could use the main bar one night after hours to record some drums. He said yes, but to "sweeten" the deal (i'm not sure for whom) he suggested that we do a gig there first, leave the kit setup, and that way it'd be less hassle to set up. He also said we could have it from when ever he shut the doors until 8 am. We jumped at the chance and got to it. After the gig (that finished at midnight) we locked the doors and I mic'd the kit with a D112 on kick (that i'd borrowed and was pretty beat up), a PG58 on snare, a PG48 on rack tom, a godknowswhat dynamic on the floor tom, a pair of sE2200a's as overheads and my trusty Samson C01 as a room mic, straight into a motu 8pre into logic. It was probably the longest night of my life, not least because the landlord, bass player and guitarist from the band were sat in a corner drinking jack daniels and getting louder and louder as it got later and later (in fact, at the end of one of the takes we used you can hear them cheering) However the results were fantastic. Great drummer on a great kit (man, it was beautiful and tuned to perfection) in a really nice sounding room and voila! It needed minimal EQ, comp on kick and snare, some gentle gates on the toms, smashed the room mic, and my trusty old Microverb I for some gritty reverb.
 
Jeries said:
and there would be no bleed on overheads or whatever is recording cymbals.

does this make sense? any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Are you sure about this ? Are you sure that you wouldn't get an odd "thump, thump" sound in the overheads ? And that the triggered toms would cover it if you did ? You'd be surprized what overheads, even dynamically miked overheads, can pick up.
As an aside, sometimes when I'm recording my mate on drums, I'll use an electric kick and when all the drums and instruments are going, it's impossible to tell it's not a real kick. So hybrids can work in some situations but the kick is far easier to get away with than the toms will be. But if you know what you're doing anything pretty much can work.
 
witzendoz said:
Not quite, it has 4 mics but the overheads are not the norm. Link.

Alan.
Click to expand...

:facepalm: AAK! You got me!

That's actually the same article I got the initial info from. Great site by the way for those that aren't familiar with it. Anyway I've been YouTubing a bunch regarding drum mic'ing in the last few weeks so I guess the Glyn Johns and Recorder Man setups got blurred together or something. Oh well. Thanks for the reminder in either case. :listeningmusic:
 
Jeries said:
...

does anyone have experience with- or is it an interesting or stupid idea to do this...

record real snare, real bass, and real cymbals but have electric toms?
Click to expand...

I once recorded on an older Yamaha DTX3 kit but with real snare and cymbals. I forget why I did this. Probably because I had the kit and wanted to try. This was wayyyy back. I was on PC, using Cool Edit Pro 2.0, recording everything into a Behringer mixer and going from the R/L main outs to a step-down 1/8" stereo cable and straight into the Sound Blaster card! haha But anyways, as far as I remember, it actually ended up turning out not too bad. When placed in the whole track, even some drummers at the time didn't know the toms and especially the kick, were electronic. Maybe it's because I took the time to "mix" the toms and kick before tracking. So on the unit I spent extra time "eq'ing" the toms and choosing an appropriate reverb that match my only outboard reverb unit at the time (Alesis MicroVerb II!). So I had that outboard verb on the OH's and snare and it all mixed together with the "matched" reverbs I managed to get on the toms. No phase issues or anything either.

Long story short, you CAN do it and you can work with it. But of course, it's not ideal.
 
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witzendoz said:
Samples, replacer, double tracks? Please!

I can tell you this, back in the early 90's when I was starting my studio with little gear, I recorded an album of a friends band. The kit was miced with. Kick SM58, Snare SM57, toms Cheap Audio Technica ball mics (white colour), overhead (1), Toshiba condenser, hats Toshiba condenser. The drum sound on that album is great. Good Kit, Good drummer, recorded in a games room with a bit of treatment (maybe a little on the dead side), tracked through a Tascam M2524 console to a Tascam MSR16S analog 16 track. When mixing I had 1 reverb, 1 stereo compressor for the whole thing and it was mixed to 16bit DAT tape. This is all we had so it had to do.

Have a look at why your drums don't sound right instead of trying to fix it in the mix. A good place to start after the room, kit, player, is are the overheads in phase with the tom / snare mics?

Alan.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mr. Obvious and congratulations on your success. I was offering another known technique. I believe Rameous covered the whole mic technique, good room, good kit, good player, overheads in phase answer.
 
Elton123 said:
Thank you Mr. Obvious and congratulations on your success. I was offering another known technique. I believe Rameous covered the whole mic technique, good room, good kit, good player, overheads in phase answer.
Click to expand...

As you wish.

Just to add, read my comment earlier before the overhead phase comment:

The overheads really add to the tom sound, the tom mics sound OK but the toms really come alive when the overheads are added.
If this is not happening for you, then you need to look at how you are micing up the kit, the space you are recording in and the kit itself.


And I suppose being called "Mr. Obvious" is a whole lot better than being called "you sir are a camel dick detz right a f@#kin camel dick...lol...get open minded man" (edited for outside the cave) as I was in another thread. :)
 
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if everyone would be recording drums with just one mic, that wouldn't have happened.
 
I've heard some weird ideas with this stuff.

Examples:

1. Record the drums first, then the cymbals. (using towels to keep your feel)
2. Real cymbals and snare, fake toms and kick.

My method is all fake or all real.
 
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