How To Use Delay

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Glen, I would like to hear some of your delay uses...the stuff that's out of the ordinary...or how you WOULD use a double track, etc...etc...

I'm not saying that to bait you into more "useless debate" ;)...but just like I posted my doubled organ "gimmick", it's always nice to hear about something new or something we haven't personally thought of.

I dig the more sparse/live room/single-tracked approaches you're more fond of...but at the same time, one CAN get bored with that too!
I feel I was guilty of over-producing a bit on my recent album...so on my current project I'm looking for different ways of recording the same old things (guitars, drums, bass, organ, piano, vocals)...if you know what I mean! :D
 
..Hey there South Side Glen

Never said that. I said there are studio techniques (aka "gimmicks") that are considered commonplace and very acceptable that go well beyond straight “documentation”, and have been in use for 50 years, and if you use the acceptable “gimmicks”…you shouldn’t be too quick to frown on new ones. ;)



No...not really...you're couching it that way.

If you are just on your soap box for the real extreme abusers...then bark away! :D
However, I think I've clearly said that my choices are dictated by the song, the mix...and what I'm trying to do with it.
It's not some automatic SOP..."Double everything...pan it hard...put xxx milliseconds of delay on it". :rolleyes:

Point is...you can't call something a cheap gimmick when someone else uses it...but when you use it, then what, it's a focused artistic decision?! :p
You keep leaving yourself a back door that allows YOU to use the gimmicks......but then slam it shut for others... Your argument is pulling out the rug on them as soon as there is mention of "doubled tracks" for anything.
I'm saying try it before deciding if it will work for you…that’s how I arrived at the double organ approach.

Like I said...sometimes it's single tracks, sometimes split-doubled, sometimes played-doubled, sometimes true stereo...
....but I DO understand your points when applied to people who always do the same thing, to excess, on everything!
My pet peeve is the overused Autotune “chirp”.
There are some mixes where if done very lightly, sparsely, discriminately, tastefully…it COULD sound OK, but the way it’s overused and slathered like pancake syrup at IHOP on a Sunday morning….it makes it difficult for anyone TO use it…EVER…without coming off cliché.
All I’m saying is…you need to hear it within the context of the mix rather than have preconceived prejudices about studio techniques (aka “gimmicks”) as soon as they are verbalized. :)
I'm probably quoting tne wrong post here, This is meant for South Side Glen. Glen. If you haven't noticed, the entire commercial record business is built on gimmicks! Now if you want to be a purist and not bother yourself with selling product then fine, but cut the rest of us a little slack! I don't think many of us can afford a studio with caverneous recording rooms with natural delay or reverb so we rely on effects. Delay,reverb and many other"gimmicks" have helped to create Rock and Roll. Of coarse if you want to be a purist and record only "better music" then fine. On the other hand, my hat is off to you as far as your mathmatical knowledge and skills. I personally reside in the do it by ear world.
 
Yeah...you quoted me, not Glen.

Glen is just saying he's tired of the overused "gimmicks", and I understand his reasons.
 
Mixsit was kind enough to send me a PM re the direction we've a;; taken in this thread regarding the use or non-use of delay. Sometimes backchannel communication can do wonders to cut through the buildup of bullshit *on all sides*. I hope he doesn't mind if I take the liberty of publicizing part of my response here, because I think it might help things from getting even further out of hand than they already have. Because Jesus Christ, there are feathers getting rattled all over the place for no reason at all other than bad communication:
me said:
And to be honest, so much of that thread is - like many such threads - kind of blowing my feelings a bit out of proportion. Every extra post one makes to try to clarify their position makes it sound like they are arguing it harder and with more conviction when really all they are trying to do is correct misunderstandings.

It's not that I hate delay or instrument doubling in and of themselves. Just like it's not that I hate multiband compressors in and of themselves as tools. I just get a bit tired of what seems to be a particularly heavy fondness for the de facto use of all those things in leiu of either better or more creative mixing technique or production ideas.

It seems like 5 out of 6 songs being worked on on this board have doubled and panned guitars, and they all just sound the same.
Is that so radical of a position? Has the desire to actually MIX songs *before* slathering them with special effects become so anathema these days? If so, then something's gotta give. Maybe my sanity is the first thing to go because of that, I don't know. But anybody who's been around this forum for long enough knows damn well that I'm speaking the truth when it comes to the unnatural preponderance of framing mixes with doubled instruments these days.

And for cryin' out loud, that comment is not accusing anybody here specifically of anything. Miro, just because I quote you doesn't mean anything personal unless I ACTUALLY WRITE SOMETHING PERSONAL. Sometimes quotes like that are simply devices for facilitating the continuation of the conversation. Just because I quote you doesn't mean I'm necessarily speaking directly about you and to you only. It only means it if it's plain from THE ACTUAL CONTENT of what I say that I am speaking directly to you or about you.

And as far as the "purist vs. money maker" slant from Terry, I don't agree at all that it's a choice between the two. The biggest and most consistent money makers in the business have always been those who beat their own paths instead of trying to copy what others do or followed "the norm".

I don't even agree that what I am espousing is "purist". All I'm saying is that production style and mixing style is not a mechanical process, any more than playing guitar or singing is a mechanical process. That's not "purism"; that's a fact. And just copying what others do because "it sounds k3wl" is just as mechanical as a Xerox machine.

G.
 
Has the desire to actually MIX songs *before* slathering them with special effects become so anathema these days?

.......

And for cryin' out loud, that comment is not accusing anybody here specifically of anything. Miro, just because I quote you doesn't mean anything personal unless I ACTUALLY WRITE SOMETHING PERSONAL.


Well then...it works both ways, Glen.
You are the one that seemed to get a bit ruffled at first when you accused me of "political tactics and "false debates"...which IS a bit "personal"...
....when all along I thought we were just having a rather tame discussion about mildly opposing viewpoints.

You can say that YOU are tired of using whatever "gimmicks"...thing is, in every post, your position was that not only are YOU tired and not going to use XYZ "gimmicks", but that everyone else needs to also stop doing it and/or that all those gimmicks suck and are not needed...etc...etc.
You didn't use those exact words...but that's what you were saying...and not just 'cuz I was "parsing".
I don't like using XYZ, and prefer to go with ABC instead. - is one thing.
I don't like using XYZ, and prefer to go with ABC instead, and I'm sick and tired that everyone else still uses XYZ, and I think it sucks why people still need to do that...etc..etc..etc - is a totally different thing.
When you express yourself using the latter approach...it almost BEGS for people to post up counter arguments...and then we end up with "useless debates".

Mind you...I respect your opinion very much Glen, and on the whole, you've probably done more engineering on a commercial level than I have...but then, I'm a writer/player who also records, which you are not (if I'm correct)...
...so the point is, we all have a different angle on how/why we choose to do things.
Sometimes you DO get absolutist in your positions, which often requires a counter argument since we ARE posting on a forum where debates are the norm. It's not just a place for giving unchallenged opinions..... :)

But I still love you man... ;) ...and I'm not even sure where the bad vibes (if any) came from???
Can't recall where I heard this (I think it was in a movie)..."I would rather have an intelligent adversary than an ignorant friend." but it applies here.
I LIKE debating things with you because you have intelligent arguments, even if I don’t agree with them all the time.
So keep that in mind…I may not let you just say something without tossing out a counterpoint if it feels right to me! :D
 
I may not let you just say something without tossing out a counterpoint if it feels right to me! :D
And not only is there nothing wrong with that, but you know darn well that I do it too ;). But remember, when you challenge what you perceive to be my absolutism (and vice versa), that challenge usually winds up sounding just as absolutist in the other direction.

And as I said earlier, though, one of the dangerous pitfalls in this kind of medium is when people start equating number of posts to amount of passion on a subject. This applied across the board (literally ;)) to everyone. Sometimes it's a justified judgment, sure, but so often it's not. So often it's simply trying to rectify a misunderstanding or miscommunication. Before you know it, those attempts at correction devolve into a debate or argument where one never even existed to start with. And this is more often than not caused by a failure on one or both parties to actually try and understand the intended content and thrust of the post in question. And yes, I can be just as guilty of that as the next guy, I'm not saying that I'm always right, before someone accuses that.

I may not be the most diplomatic guy in the world at times, and when I am absolutely sure about something, I unequivocally state it. Many people interpret that as ego, it's not; it's just confidence in fact. When I am not absolutely sure, I usually try to couch it in as many qualifying adjectives as I can. If people choose to ignore those caveats, I can't help that either, except to respond with an attempt at clarification, which often (not always) devolves into a silly and, YES, useless argument where one should have never happened.

And as far as this thread goes, there were several posts before me that espoused the coolness and fun ad usefulness of delays, so for some intended balance and truthfulness of opinion I posted that I actually only very rarely used delay myself, and lamented it's overuse in the home recording community these days. There's no debate there. There no argument intended. Simply an expression of a truthful and entirely personal point of view.

We have had some good debates in the past, miro, but not everything everyone says is meant as a target for debate. I too respect your opinions and observe and understand you to be a knowledgeable guy. That doesn't mean I always agree with you, (as you well know ;) ), just like you don't always agree with me. That's true of every person who I respect here, and there's a whole lot of them. But I don't challenge them ever damn time I disagree with them, either. That's part of what respect is all about.

Hell, Miro, you and I would be doing absolutely nothing but debating and arguing with each other 24/7 if I challenged and re-contextualized every nuance and quote you ever made that I could find some kind of variance with or that I discovered I misunderstood after waiting a few posts to make sure I understood your position properly. But I don't.

But I swear to god, my hand on my heart, Miro, that it's getting to the point where with almost every post I make I find myself wondering before I hit that Submit button, "I wonder if Miro is going to challenge me on this post too." It's not that I can't take challenges, nor that I never deserve them. But I'm starting to feel like Peter Sellers as Inspector Clouseau, with Kato-slav just waiting to jump out at me from every shadow and corner. Sometimes you *are* just trying to score sporting debating points. And sometimes enough is too much.

You now have the last word, say what you will. I'm just too damn tired to give a shit anymore.

G.
 
Hell, Miro, you and I would be doing absolutely nothing but debating and arguing with each other 24/7 if I challenged and re-contextualized every nuance and quote you ever made that I could find some kind of variance with or that I discovered I misunderstood after waiting a few posts to make sure I understood your position properly. But I don't.

And neither do I.

Heck Glen…now you’re making it seem like I chase you down in every thread you’re posting in and then proceed to challenge you endlessly…???
There are some topics that we find interesting/amusing enough to both show up in…and it’s only there that we may(?) get into debates at times, but that’s certainly not the norm from thread to thread.
It’s just that we’ve had a few longer debates over the last several months…which gives the impression we debate on everything…but we don’t.
Also…you get into drawn out debates with other people occasionally…and so do I….and there are many threads where we never “bump” into each other…so I’m not sure what’s the issue here?

When someone keeps responding with counterpoints…that’s an invitation to keep the debate going.
And that can ONLY happen when there are two or more people carrying on the debate.
Are you suggesting that I’m carrying on the debate while you are not?
That’s not possible.
If I let it go, you would have nothing to respond to, and if you let it go, I would have nothing to respond to…but when we both keep responding…then the debate goes on.
You seem to want it some other way…?

To me…THAT is what a forum is about …that is its most fundamental purpose, and not a place for people to just post opinions without any expectation of debate.
With thousands of hits per day…someone is always going to question or counter that opinion. I don’t have a problem with that.
The only problem with internet forums is that a lot can get lost in the translation. It’s not the same as when people are in a room, facing each other, and you can also use their tone and body language to discern what exactly they mean.
The typed word is rather "flat", and often one has to go on and on and on with their comments in order to get a small point across….and/or we have our emoticons :) which obviously don’t always work. ;)
 
I'm trying to figure out how I can double it and then pan hard L/R.... ;)

...Glen on one side of the stereo image and me on the other! :D

Since were're "out of phase" on this topic...we would cancel each other out! :laughings:
 
And neither do I.

Heck Glen…now you’re making it seem like I chase you down in every thread you’re posting in and then proceed to challenge you endlessly…???
There are some topics that we find interesting/amusing enough to both show up in…and it’s only there that we may(?) get into debates at times, but that’s certainly not the norm from thread to thread.
It’s just that we’ve had a few longer debates over the last several months…which gives the impression we debate on everything…but we don’t.
Also…you get into drawn out debates with other people occasionally…and so do I….and there are many threads where we never “bump” into each other…so I’m not sure what’s the issue here?

When someone keeps responding with counterpoints…that’s an invitation to keep the debate going.
And that can ONLY happen when there are two or more people carrying on the debate.
Are you suggesting that I’m carrying on the debate while you are not?
That’s not possible.
If I let it go, you would have nothing to respond to, and if you let it go, I would have nothing to respond to…but when we both keep responding…then the debate goes on.
You seem to want it some other way…?

To me…THAT is what a forum is about …that is its most fundamental purpose, and not a place for people to just post opinions without any expectation of debate.
With thousands of hits per day…someone is always going to question or counter that opinion. I don’t have a problem with that.
The only problem with internet forums is that a lot can get lost in the translation. It’s not the same as when people are in a room, facing each other, and you can also use their tone and body language to discern what exactly they mean.
The typed word is rather "flat", and often one has to go on and on and on with their comments in order to get a small point across….and/or we have our emoticons :) which obviously don’t always work. ;)
Both you guys need to chill! It's turned in to who is the best at winning an argument! Can we just say that both of you are entitled to your position and quit trying to outsmart each other. My point, which seems to have fallen on deaf ears, is that when you are recording and mixing in a small,sometimes untreated room you can't expect the resulting mix to sound as if it were recorded at Abbey Road studios. So in this instance i believe that a certain, tasteful use of reverb or delay is permiissable. Can you guys agree with me on that?
 
Glad you changed the subject,

I'm trying to figure out how I can double it and then pan hard L/R.... ;)

...Glen on one side of the stereo image and me on the other! :D

Since were're "out of phase" on this topic...we would cancel each other out! :laughings:
but, while we are on a new one please help me on this. If I record a rythym guitar track and copy it to a second track, if I pan each track hard left and hard right, would this not be a stereo image of the rythym guitar? I guess this is what Glen refers to as doubling(?). If I'm way off here, please educate me. I respect both of your very knowledgeable opinions. Thanks
 
This post has three parts.

The most important part for me is how this thread is going to get me to explore delay a bit, an effect I've never ever used. :)

Second, delay is an effect I've never ever used, and no one who's critiqued my mixes on either this board or Recordingproject.com has ever said to me: 'Why don't you use delay?' or 'I can't hear any delay on this - what's wrong with you?' My mixes range from songs with nothing but an acapella vocal to mixes with two dozen tracks all trying to fit in and get heard at the same time. If I could anticipate one group of responses to what I've just said, it'd be something like this: "Dobro, the reason nobody's ever commented on the lack of delay in your mixes is cuz both you and listeners don't know much about mixing." Maybe. Or maybe delay's not all that big a deal. But you can count on me exploring delay after reading this thread, cuz it's calling out to me. :)

Part three is a question: Would you say that delay tends to get used in busier mixes and tends not to get used in simpler stuff? For instance, if it's a mix of Doc Watson singing and playing his Martin, there wouldn't be much call for delay?
 
...would this not be a stereo image of the rythym guitar?

NO...it would be a "fake" stereo image.

True stereo tracks are created during recording with a true stereo mic setup.
There are a few ways to do it. I do most of my drum kits in stereo using the Mid/Side stereo mic technique.

Oh...and using an extension cab on your guitar amp doesn't make stereo either...it's just the same signal coming out of two cabs.
 
... an effect I've never ever used. :)

Technically...reverb IS delay, though it's multiple/diffused delays...so we all use reverb or get it naturally to some degree (unless we track in an anechoic chamber :D )...but I know what you are talking about...that you've never used the pure DELAY effect.

There was some engineer guy in some magazine (can't remember who) that was talking about how stays away from reverb, and only uses delay...but in all kinds of subtle ways. He hated the lushness you get with reverb, whereas delay was drier, more defined especially if you don’t use any regeneration with the delay.

Delay is not something I use on a lot of stuff, though it's almost necessary when splitting and doubling a track. If you don't use any delay on one of them...no matter how you pan them, they tend to sound centered. When you add a pinch of delay to one...then the panning works.
But that's not done on a lot of tracks as a norm.

It can have its uses...a way to bring attention to something or give it a "spacey" quality. Some music begs for it...while other types would never really use it.
It's on a per song/style/production basis.....
 
I don't split and double tracks exactly. I double-mic guitars though, and pan and EQ the two tracks differently, then put a verb on the stereo result.
 
My pet peeve is the overused Autotune “chirp”.
There are some mixes where if done very lightly, sparsely, discriminately, tastefully…it COULD sound OK, but the way it’s overused and slathered like pancake syrup at IHOP on a Sunday morning….it makes it difficult for anyone TO use it…EVER…without coming off cliché.

I too am worn out on Autotune. But I gotta' go the other way on the rest of what you said. It's just not a subtle, light, tasteful thing. Either go totally balls-out and make the vocal into some synth electro robo part like Daft Punk soloing with their vocoder, or leave it off.

But to slather it on everything even in cases where the singer can sing and the effect is not warranted, yeah they can knock that off any time now.
 
I'm freaking tired of mixes built around doubled and panned instruments and with little more musical value than that.

G.
I think it's 'bout time we collectively move on and stop double tracking guitars. Instead double track the hi hat. This time it is always panned Center/Right. Lead Vox on the left.

In fact, guitar can bugger right off. The new band template is drums, bass, vox, electric xylophone.

So... Everybody get on that and we'll meet back here in 40 years when it is time to change the standard again.
 
I don't split and double tracks exactly. I double-mic guitars though, and pan and EQ the two tracks differently, then put a verb on the stereo result.

I don't double mic guitar cabs too often, mainly 'cuz I always end up liking one of the mics/tracks way more than the other...:D...so then I get rid of the crappier track, and then play/record the part a second time using a different guitar....and using the same, one mic I liked the most.

That way...I don't need to mess with EQ to make them sound different since they do on their own, and because they are two different performances, I get less phasing issues.
I can pan them any way I like...even hard L/R...and there's no need to add delay to "separate" them like you would with a split/doubled track.

Or...if it works for the song...I will track the same rhythm guitar part a second time using an acoustic guitar, which can sound really nice against the electric if you pan them apart.
 
I think it's 'bout time we collectively move on and stop double tracking guitars. Instead double track the hi hat. This time it is always panned Center/Right. Lead Vox on the left.

In fact, guitar can bugger right off. The new band template is drums, bass, vox, electric xylophone.

So... Everybody get on that and we'll meet back here in 40 years when it is time to change the standard again.

I mean, I realize you're joking, but why not?



(and I say this as a guy who absolutely LOVES the sound of layered electric guitars, but also kind of digs goofy experimentation. I'm not going to stop multitracking rhythm parts (leads are a different story), but I think there's value in not being afraid to tell convention to bugger off).
 
I too am worn out on Autotune. But I gotta' go the other way on the rest of what you said. It's just not a subtle, light, tasteful thing. Either go totally balls-out and make the vocal into some synth electro robo part like Daft Punk soloing with their vocoder, or leave it off.

But to slather it on everything even in cases where the singer can sing and the effect is not warranted, yeah they can knock that off any time now.

I always think back to where it all began...with Cher's "Believe"...and in that song, it's used very lightly...just to highlight some words.
Though I wouldn't miss it if everyone just stopped using it.
That guy who posted that bit-o-spam tread a week ago...where he was looking for production comments, but really just a shill for his artist...some chick Sonya something or other....
...he had the "chirp" working overtime on her vocals!!! :D
It was annoying.
 
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