R
RAMI
Guest
This has been one of the most useful discussions I've ever seen here. Thanks for the 60,000/bpm = 1/4 note of delay. Very helpful.
I might be stating the obvious, but that formula only applies if the tempo is 120bpm.
I might be stating the obvious, but that formula only applies if the tempo is 120bpm.
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Zeppe
New member
R
RAMI
Guest
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I'll admit that the "just dial it in" method is the only one that works if one does not actually know the BPM of their song, which a distressingly large number of bands don't, for reasons that vary from good ol' ignorance of BPM to a drummer that couldn't hold a specific BPM if you handed it to him in a bucket.
But if you know your BPM, the options open up. Especially if everything you do is at 120 BPM
G.
But if you know your BPM, the options open up. Especially if everything you do is at 120 BPM
G.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You still need to do some math to convert to milliseconds.
BPM/Time Sig-Notes/MS is what I like to use for delay computations.
I use this free utility when I'm working in my DAW:
http://www.mirage1.u-net.com/echoview.htm
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Zeppe
New member
No. The numbers on the chart are in milliseconds.
This might be a little better chart with realistic BPMs
http://gamefreaks.net/defrag/carbon_pi/files/delay_chart.pdf
O
OneWerd
New member
Do people really go through all this for their delay effects? I always just input (or tap)my bpm into the plug and adjust the timing (quarter note, 16th, etc.) until it sounds right. Is all this calculation really necessary?
flatfinger
Use every dam bit!
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Zeppe
New member
60,000ms = 1 min
BPM = quantity of 1/4 notes in 1 min
So naturally if you divide the amount of 1/4 notes from the amount of milliseconds in one minute you will get the length of each quater note in milliseconds. 3rd grade math.
BPM = quantity of 1/4 notes in 1 min
So naturally if you divide the amount of 1/4 notes from the amount of milliseconds in one minute you will get the length of each quater note in milliseconds. 3rd grade math.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Yep. And it gets even easier if you consider that it's a no brainer that therefore 60BPM = 1000ms (1 sec). Therefore you automatically know that 120BPM = 500ms and 240BPM = 250ms. No real "math" needed to figure those out.
90BPM = 2/3rds of a second, or 666.667ms. Twice that in BPM is half that time, meaning 180BPM is 1/3rd of a second, or 333.333ms.
So without even having to pull out a chart or calculator or having to tap it into a delay, or having to even sober up, you already automatically know the values for 60, 90, 120, 180 and 240 BPM.
G.
noisewreck
New member
Meh, sometimes an free running non-tempo-sync'd delay sounds more interesting. We've been too computerized on everything these days... and this is coming from someone that's squarely in the electronic music camp, so I do everything with either computer or computers thinking they're synths 
Delays can be quite fun, especially those that allow for filtering of the taps and feedback. Native Instruments have been doing some really cool stuff with bringing granular synthesis to the world of Delay. The new Guitar Rig 4 has a cool granular delay that allows for some crazy stuff.
PSP delays are always fun, including the one in Nitro, which although seems to be rather basic at first blush, once you setup some creative routing in there, you can squeeze quite a bit of potential out of that sucker.
Yet another favorites of mine are loading/chaining delays, filters and distortion plugs within Plogue Bidule and setting up a feedback structure where each tap gets more and more distorted or filtered as it dies out. Then you run that concoction as a VST, so essentially you're using Bidule as an FX wrapper inside your DAW. Awesome possibilities + control. Yummy!
Delay is fun, fun, fun.
Delays can be quite fun, especially those that allow for filtering of the taps and feedback. Native Instruments have been doing some really cool stuff with bringing granular synthesis to the world of Delay. The new Guitar Rig 4 has a cool granular delay that allows for some crazy stuff.
PSP delays are always fun, including the one in Nitro, which although seems to be rather basic at first blush, once you setup some creative routing in there, you can squeeze quite a bit of potential out of that sucker.
Yet another favorites of mine are loading/chaining delays, filters and distortion plugs within Plogue Bidule and setting up a feedback structure where each tap gets more and more distorted or filtered as it dies out. Then you run that concoction as a VST, so essentially you're using Bidule as an FX wrapper inside your DAW. Awesome possibilities + control. Yummy!
Delay is fun, fun, fun.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Oh.
Well…it was a messy looking chart!
Your PDF is cleaner.
You don't always want to use 1/4 delay times....do you?
And it's usually too long for delays in mixes, IMO.
So you still have to do some basic math for 1/8, 1/16, 1/32...and sometimes fractions of those.
Not to mention, the BPMs are not always even numbered - 120 or 60 or 80...etc.
Granted…it’s still all basic math, just much easier using a chart or a small utility…though a calculator or pencil & paper works too!
I usually work out about 3-4 delay times for a song, and use them per/track as needed, not always using the same delay for every track/instrument.
For some stuff it might be a 1/16 delay, for another it might be 1/32….or even less.
You just have to try and see which one works best for the particular track and the overall feel.
And there are times when the computed delay just doesn't sound right...so I will then get it close and do a bit of nudging to find the right groove.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I almost never use delay, to be honest. It's a gimmick that gets in the way of music more than it enhances it, IMHO. Pre-delay as part of a natural reverb, when needed, sure. Delay in and of itself is almost all gimmick and almost never needed, though, IMHO, unless you gotta cover for a lousy musician.
But that's just a matter of personal production style. I don't claim to mean that as gospel. I just prefer to leave toys out of the production as much as possible.
G.
But that's just a matter of personal production style. I don't claim to mean that as gospel. I just prefer to leave toys out of the production as much as possible.
G.
Z
Zeppe
New member
Oh.
Well…it was a messy looking chart!
Your PDF is cleaner.
You don't always want to use 1/4 delay times....do you?
And it's usually too long for delays in mixes, IMO.
So you still have to do some basic math for 1/8, 1/16, 1/32...and sometimes fractions of those.
Not to mention, the BPMs are not always even numbered - 120 or 60 or 80...etc.
Granted…it’s still all basic math, just much easier using a chart or a small utility…though a calculator or pencil & paper works too!
I usually work out about 3-4 delay times for a song, and use them per/track as needed, not always using the same delay for every track/instrument.
For some stuff it might be a 1/16 delay, for another it might be 1/32….or even less.
You just have to try and see which one works best for the particular track and the overall feel.
And there are times when the computed delay just doesn't sound right...so I will then get it close and do a bit of nudging to find the right groove.
No, I wouldn't use a 1/4 note delay for much of anything that I can think of but once I have the 1/4 note time calculations for 1/8 & 1/16 and so on are easy from there. I agree that delay is completely song/track dependent. 1/4 delay time calculations are just a good starting point and easy to do.
I like using short delays that do more to reinforce a track then add effect to it. Moogerfooger!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm mostly talking about delays when doubling tracks...not necessarily for filling out lead playing.
If I split/pan a rhythm track for example, I want to have a calculated delay time (usually something very short 1/32, 1/64) for the doubled track.
For less percussive things, like organ, you can stretch the delay time more.
I use mainly reverb for leads when mixing, though when playing live, I like just a "hint" of delay...so that the delay is barely a "shadow".
That's why I have issues with most delay stomps...they don't offer enough mix/delay level sensitivity.
I usually have to run the delay level almost OFF to get what I like...and there's not much room for adjustment. As soon as you touch the delay level, it's either too loud or off!
I don't understand why they have so much level available on the high side...who the hell plays with THAT much delay in their leads?!
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Again, the caveat here that there is no definitive right or wrong answer here, it's personal preference...
If I want multiple rhythm tracks, I'll ask for multiple rhythm tracks from the performer. Actually I usually don't have to ask for it, it's more often than not assumed as part of the intended arrangement. But the difference between two performances and a doubled track is the difference between good wine and grape soda to me. And I'm just not that big on grape soda
.BTW, I never read any rule anywhere that says the two rhythm tracks even have to be playing the same thing. I have over the years gotten a lot of tracks to mix where the two rhythm tracks were different players with different styles, and to my tastes, those usually wound up being the most interesting and dynamic arrangements to mix and to listen to.
And if what I get has only a single rhythm track, then so be it; that's usually going to be quite good enough. I never quite understood the incredibly widespread fascination with doubled/panned rhythm tracks that is so prevalent on this BBS. OOooohhh....stereo!!
I'm not saying that I never do it, but it's certainly far more the exception than the rule for me.
G.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
But the difference between two performances and a doubled track is the difference between good wine and grape soda to me. And I'm just not that big on grape soda
That view is based on the assumption that two performances are always better than a doubled track.
Yes and no.
If I want have an organ track that is mostly full, held chords for providing a bed, then I really would NOT want to play them twice if I wanted the L/R tracks to have a perfect sync with each other, even when a calculated delay is used for one of the tracks.
Oscillations between the two tracks from their individual vibrato could be messy if the part is played twice, but it would be perfectly in sync (even with delay) when doubled…you just have to find the right delay.
I will offset the delay by whatever amount is needed to create the right “vibrato sync” between the two, doubled tracks.
If played twice, you would NEVER nail the chord changes exactly, so at every change, that vibrato sync would also change, sometimes it would sound good and sometimes it would cause weird phasing-type effects L-to-R.
Other times, like the song I'm recording at this moment...I actually played the two rhythm guitar parts twice, even though they WERE playing the exact same rhythm part...I just used two different guitars.
So…doubled tracks and delay have their proper uses without it necessarily always being "grape soda".
noisewreck
New member
But that all depends on the genre as well. Imagine Vangelis or Eno w/o delays
Plus, toys are fun!
noisewreck
New member
Grape soda ain't so bad either. I may make you fat, but won't get you drunkSo…doubled tracks and delay have their proper uses without it necessarily always being "grape soda".
A
AbuseTheMuses
New member
math is key
I used to do this: divide 60 by the tempo and you'll get a number. Multiply is and you get an approximation of what beat you want to hit on with it. I used to use a lot of 150bpm tempo stuff, and when I divided that into 60 (60/tempo, not other way around), then, wanting triplets, multiplied by 1.5. I ended up with 0.3, which is 300ms, which made great guitar riffs at that speed kind of coupleing up on itself like the U2 guy does for instance... If it's going to fast, just double that number to make dotted triplets (or quarter notes or whatever you multiplier was), or kick it up a touch in the delay rate while kicking down the tempo. If you use a knob or a tap-tempo thing its easy, but if you are trying to set it into an algorhythm for something already played and recorded I would say the best way is to just do the math.
here's an example:
60/150=0.4
0.4 x 1.5 (because I like triplets on delay) = 0.6
0.6= 600 milliseconds
now that can be doubled or halved depending on whether you want it fluttering or echoing... 300 ms would get you a 'The Edge' type delay where 1 note makes 3 or so, all in tempo, while 1200 or 2400 would get you more of like a vocal echo... but still all within the frame of 150bpm tempo hitting right on the beat.
divide 60/tempo and figure out how you want to multiply or divide it (x/2, x/4, x times 2, x times 4, x times 1.5 or 3 for triples, etc) depend on the speed you are wanting it to hit on. where 'x' is the simple reduction of milliseconds times 1000 aka 0.3=300.
I think its especially cool with drum machines if you are into that sort of thing, to make a delay wave that essentially adds grace notes for you as you turn the effect knob up and down. a hit back from a snare drum is also neat to use, but the more you stretch the delay time out, the less pronounced it is in the actual rhythm, and kind of harder to work with if you like to slow down and speed up... but for a solid tempo it's great backdrop effect.
I used to do this: divide 60 by the tempo and you'll get a number. Multiply is and you get an approximation of what beat you want to hit on with it. I used to use a lot of 150bpm tempo stuff, and when I divided that into 60 (60/tempo, not other way around), then, wanting triplets, multiplied by 1.5. I ended up with 0.3, which is 300ms, which made great guitar riffs at that speed kind of coupleing up on itself like the U2 guy does for instance... If it's going to fast, just double that number to make dotted triplets (or quarter notes or whatever you multiplier was), or kick it up a touch in the delay rate while kicking down the tempo. If you use a knob or a tap-tempo thing its easy, but if you are trying to set it into an algorhythm for something already played and recorded I would say the best way is to just do the math.
here's an example:
60/150=0.4
0.4 x 1.5 (because I like triplets on delay) = 0.6
0.6= 600 milliseconds
now that can be doubled or halved depending on whether you want it fluttering or echoing... 300 ms would get you a 'The Edge' type delay where 1 note makes 3 or so, all in tempo, while 1200 or 2400 would get you more of like a vocal echo... but still all within the frame of 150bpm tempo hitting right on the beat.
divide 60/tempo and figure out how you want to multiply or divide it (x/2, x/4, x times 2, x times 4, x times 1.5 or 3 for triples, etc) depend on the speed you are wanting it to hit on. where 'x' is the simple reduction of milliseconds times 1000 aka 0.3=300.
I think its especially cool with drum machines if you are into that sort of thing, to make a delay wave that essentially adds grace notes for you as you turn the effect knob up and down. a hit back from a snare drum is also neat to use, but the more you stretch the delay time out, the less pronounced it is in the actual rhythm, and kind of harder to work with if you like to slow down and speed up... but for a solid tempo it's great backdrop effect.
