How to get the real sound

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nicolaad30

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I have heard lots of recordings, and I found, Led Zeppellin's ones having the nicest way to record drums. I know it is mic positionig.

But lately I have heard Pearl Jam's ones and they seem to me pretty well recorded drums. So the questions are:

1. What kind of mics do they use?

2. About placement, what can you tell me?. Where do they put those mics?.

3. How to set the EQ or effects (if they use them)?.
 
Ya.......the last few Pearl Jam records have some of the BEST sound I can think of......

They have more mics than you or I can count to, just look inside the CD booklet.
 
Micing technique basically means squat when recording drummers.

If you're looking for a particular drum sound, don't bother looking inside any CD booklets . . . don't bother trying to figure out what mics were used, and don't bother asking about micing technique.

Instead, try and find out what kind of drums were used -- what brand, the kind of wood, and even what kind of heads if you can. You score bonus points if you can find out somehow what kind of beater and/or drum stick was used.

Then, watch a bunch of your favorite drummer's videos or live footage if you can, and try and study his technique -- I'd imagine that would be a little tougher to pull off. :D

I remember a great quote from a mag article recently where Led Zeppelin's engineer was speaking at some AE seminars . . . and during Q&A, someone asked him "How did you get John Bonham's drum sound?"

His reply: "I didn't get John Bonham's drum sound . . . John Bonham did."

So true.

Another one I got from someone at RAP, although I don't recall who: "I never give much thought to what mics to put up on the kit. I figure if the drummer is good, then any mic will sound fine . . . and if he sucks, it doesn't matter because it will sound like shit anyway."
 
Well, while it's sort of an unarguable cliché that the player and instrument are certainly paramount, there is still a lot to be said for a great room and good mic'ing technique, which may be more to the point of the question, assuming that nicolaad is:

•not able to hire Jon Bonham
•not able to convince every drummer who comes to his studio to buy Jon Bonham's drums
•not able to teach every drummer in a short period of time Jon Bonham's technique.

I can say that a lot of the "hugeness" of the Jon Bonham sound was due to the utilization of highly compressed distant room mics. And the acoustics of the recording room itself.

The proof that mic'ing technique IS worth discussing is that when I changed my overhead technique from a coincident pair to Recorderman's method, I immediately gained a huge jump in the quality of my drum sounds. This had nothing to do with the drums or the drummer, because in many cases the quality jump was occuring with the same drummer and kit. Utilizing compressed room mics has also been a worthwhile technique. Other recording techniques worth exploring are mic'ing undersides of drums, mic'ing the snare shell (from the side), building kick drum tunnels, mic'ing the beater head on double-headed kicks, and learning the arcane art of drum tuning. (These are just a few off the top of my head...)

An indication that mic choice is worth discussing can be found in the many passionate discussions about various people's favorite kick, snare, tom, or overhead mics. Those people think that mic choices are a worthwhile (or sometimes even critical) issue. I would tend to agree with them.

Then there are mixing techniques that can also add to the drum quality, especially involving compression... that's another whole post.
 
I wasn't refering to booklets for specs, just scheer variety. I swear that they never used the same guitar or amp more than once (not even for a whole song).

Pearl Jams guitar selection is a 2 layer shelf, 25-30 yards long.
 
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Yes...............they are lined up on their sides for maximum space saving........
 
littledog said:
Well, while it's sort of an unarguable cliché that the player and instrument are certainly paramount, there is still a lot to be said for a great room and good mic'ing technique, which may be more to the point of the question, assuming that nicolaad is:

•not able to hire Jon Bonham
•not able to convince every drummer who comes to his studio to buy Jon Bonham's drums
•not able to teach every drummer in a short period of time Jon Bonham's technique.


I'm sure there's plenty of documentation of some type somwhere of the type of drums Bonham used . . . how he tuned them . . . how hard he hit them, etc. etc. etc.

And I don't know about you, but I have a rental shop close by that can get me just about anything I'd need for a day or two. Usually around $50 - 75. Pretty reasonable.

Go ahead and stick your room mics up and compress 'em good. You're still not going to sound a damn thing like Bonham . . . not even remotely close -- perhaps a sad, sick comparison at best . . . utill you figure out how to get his sound on your own. And once that's accomplished, I'll guarantee you I could put up a couple mics overhead, one on kick and one on the snare . . . slap on some "huge-ass tank" or "warehouse" reverb and compress the crap out of it and it will likely sound like a reasonable approximation that would do Bonham proud.
 
An interesting approach that I am currently exploring is replacing the actual real drum sounds with sampled sounds using the Drumagog program. I keep a set of Yamaha stage customs/Sabian cymbals in the studio and get results that vary depending on the drummer. Experimenting with mic placement and the mics you use is a good learning tool as well. Compression and reverb have a great deal to do with a good drum sound. You might check out some drummer websites for ideas.

God Bless,
Steve Stallings
Brazos Audio
 
untill you figure out how to get his sound on your own. And once that's accomplished, I'll guarantee you I could put up a couple mics overhead, one on kick and one on the snare . . . slap on some "huge-ass tank" or "warehouse" reverb and compress the crap out of it and it will likely sound like a reasonable approximation that would do Bonham proud.

I almost always agree with your posts and opinions. But, I'm just not sure I completely agree with this one. I agree that it starts with the sound before it is miced. No doubt. But I also know that I can mic my own drums so that they sound pretty good... and really really bad. Same drums... same drummer. Just different mics, mic techniques, and placements. I'm confident that I could have miced John Bonham and made him sound bad too.

Capturing a quality, studio drum sound from an accoustic set is one of the most difficult things I've ever tried to record.
 
kjam22 said:
Capturing a quality, studio drum sound from an accoustic set is one of the most difficult things I've ever tried to record.

Then my guess is you probably haven't recorded any really good drummers lately. :D
 
Well, I must work with an entirely different type of clientele than chessrock does.

I have yet to have a single drummer rent a kit for a recording at my studio. They bring their own. I have also yet to have one drummer ask me for any tips on improving their playing technique. I know quite a few that would tell me where I could shove my suggestions... But then again, I'm not chessrock, whose clients flock from far and wide just so they can learn the right way to select and play their instruments.

personally, i don't know any good drummers who want to sound exactly like anyone but themselves. so I can't say I've consciously gone for an imitation of Bonham or anyone else - sad, sick , or otherwise.

what is most interesting is that you have argued long and hard that it is completely illegitimate to make ANY assumptions about the value and quality of a piece of gear without actually trying it - reputation, personal experience with the manufacturer, recommendations by people who's opinion you respect, or any other information is, according to you, totally bogus and irrelevant.

so what hands-on experience with my work are you referencing that enables you to blithely assume that you could get drum sounds that are far better than mine? Now, I'm not saying you can't (or that you can). With some people I can actually tell from their posts if they are good engineers. Other people I know from their reputation and their work. Let's just say if you are one of the world's great engineers, you are doing a good job staying incognito.

some of us here are clearly not as wonderful or talented (or glib and witty) as you are. it must be just awful for someone with such awesome gifts to be forced to hang out here and commune with people like kjarn22 who actually find recording a drum kit challenging.

I wish i had thought of such a perfect answer to every question:

"I'm having trouble getting a good vocal sound..."
"I guess you haven't recorded any good vocalists lately"

"I'm having trouble with mic'ing my piano"
"I guess you you aren't using a really good pianist."

Maybe we should just ask Slackmaster to make a sticky with all those answers and then we can all go home.
 
littledog said:
I have yet to have a single drummer rent a kit for a recording at my studio. They bring their own.


That's fine, as long as it sounds good. Not a lot of guys that come by here have great-sounding kits. Some do, and it's a treat to work with them, obviously. Living in a bigger city, sometimes I forget that not everyone is within shouting distance of a good rental shop. My bad.

But then again, I'm not chessrock, whose clients flock from far and wide just so they can learn the right way to select and play their instruments.


I wouldn't go that far. :D I do get plenty who tell me they want their recordings to sound professional . . . with the best sound quality they can get, and sometimes that involves telling me they want the drums to sound great.

So I'll ask them about their kit and what it sounds like, how old and/or well-maintained it is, etc. If it sounds like they're not happy with it, then I tell them there's a place called Andy's music on the corner of Western and Belmont that has a pretty sizeable collection of rentals at a reasonable rate.

so what hands-on experience with my work are you referencing that enables you to blithely assume that you could get drum sounds that are far better than mine? Now, I'm not saying you can't (or that you can).


All I'm saying is that whichever of us has the better drummer on a given afternoon will probably wind up with the better-sounding drum tracks when all is said and done. That's all.

And if I happen to have a freakin' kick ass drummer with a nice kit come in this saturday, and you have Joe average with his so-so kit that does the job, then yes, I'll bet I can get better drum tracks than you come sunday. :D At least on that particular week.

Let's just say if you are one of the world's great engineers, you are doing a good job staying incognito.


I've never really given that much thought -- as to where I would stand in comparison to others. I can say confidently that there are certain things where I can really shine but I wouldn't say that makes me one of the best in the world. :D

In the right situation, I'd at least call myself pretty useful.

it must be just awful for someone with such awesome gifts to be forced to hang out here and commune with people like kjarn22 who actually find recording a drum kit challenging.


Not really. There might be some things I could learn from him.

"I'm having trouble getting a good vocal sound..."
"I guess you haven't recorded any good vocalists lately"


Although I wouldn't exactly go to that extreme, there is at least a grain of truth to it that you can't deny. I just think a lot of us, myself included, tend to beat ourselves up a bit too much wondering what we're doing wrong or what gear we need to sink our money in to in order to sound like someone we hear on the radio or on a CD. And we forget there's a whole different side to this equation beyond our microphones and other gear.

So we get in this vicous cycle of researching gear and techniques, and we beat ourselves up over how to get a particular sound. Then we try and tinker more with what may not even be broken, and we spend even more money on gear that we might not even need.

Speaking of which . . . when I see how stocked your gear list is with all the big-name mic pres, and I muse at all of the money you must have spent on them -- not to mention your mic collection . . .

And then you mention that people have to bring in their own drums . . .

That tells me that you might have spent a little much in one area at the expense of another. Although I have no idea what kind of space limitations you might have -- which is a whole nother area you might have even been able to address with some of you mic pre fund come to think of it.

I'm also puzzled at how you seem to champion people whom you admire who aren't afraid to speak their minds. You excuse certain people's behavior based on the fact that "hey, this guy speaks his mind," and so on.

Yet, when someone like me has the gall to do the same, you have a problem with it. It really seems to irritate you that someone without a "respected name" in the industry can log on to a bbs and just throw out whatever is at the top of his mind and/or whatever he might be itching to say. Especially when some of it kind of makes sense sometimes.

Perhaps you find it threatening, or maybe you're a little envious that you, yourself, continue to put self-imposed limitations on what you can/can't say because you're so concerned with being politically correct all the time.
 
Chess, you're going a little far afield here.

Basically some poor guy asks a question about drum mic'ing and your response was:

"Micing technique basically means squat when recording drummers."

Now, you're right, there is no substitute for a good drummer. But you don't always get to hand pick the drummer that comes into your studio. Nor do you get to always pick the drum set that they have come to feel comfortable playing. But no matter who they are or what they are playing, to imply that the knowledge of how to mic a drum kit (or other techniques for getting a good drum sound) is useless (or am i misunderstanding the term "squat") is a little bizarre. Maybe at your level technique is something that is instinctive and almost "forgotten", but there are many people here just starting out who don't have the benefit of your vast experience.

You are not alone in falling prey to the temptation to answer the "How do I get to Carnegie Hall" question with the answer: "Practice". I do it quite a bit myself. But after we are done amusing ourselves with our razor wits, there is still some guy out there lost in the middle of the city who needs a real answer like: "two blocks past Columbus Circle and take a left, then one block on the right.

No one wants to hear that the reason the drums sound like shit on the CD you tracked and mixed was because they wouldn't take your advice and go to Chicago for their drums (clearly a hick town like Boston won't do...) and study videotapes of how Chessrock's favorite drummers hit their kit. In my situation, i do what i have to get the best possible result with the skills and gear that i have. If I have to work harder and use clever engineering techniques to simulate the sound of a great drummer or great drums that's what I'll do. Is it as good as having a great drummer on great drums oin a great room? Of course not. But that's sometimes NOT even an option! And that's where your skill really gets challenged. And that's where having no technique won't cut it.

By the way, since you asked, I have invested quite proportionally, in my opinion, in musical instruments as well as recording gear in my studio. An 1897 Steinway B is hardly a token investment. Nor are my extensive collection of synths and keyboards, as well as a large collection of percussion instruments. I have considered getting a drum kit from time to time, but the problem is my clientele is very eclectic. A nice DW kit that sounds great for R&B may be an anathema for a jazz drummer who likes his 60's era Gretsch kit with a tiny double-headed kick. I've recorded one drummer recently (who would be well known to anyone here who knows jazz drummers) who used a big djembe with a kick pedal for his kick drum. And snares? How many do you think I'd have to own before I could even BEGIN to cover the bare necessities for the variety of styles of music I record.

So I thought about it, and decided in my particular situation I wouldn't benefit greatly from having an in-house drum set, especially since I don't have the space to leave it set up all the time.

Finally, you are obviously welcome to say whatever you want about whatever you want, as is anyone else. I will also feel free to disagree with you or anyone else at any time. To try and inhibit discussion of issues by flinging around "political correctness" epithets is intellectually flimsy. The fact that I historically disagreed with much of what you have written, at least compared to some others like knightfly, pipeline, or light, has nothing to do with your status in the industry. If you search hard enough you will find that I have taken issue with statements with those other three from time to time. The difference is that, by comparison, you say a whole lot more that i disagree with. Much of the time I don't bother to respond, because I also know that there is a fine line between having a discussion with you and enduring personal attacks. I will willingly admit that an interpersonal dynamic is not a function of just one person, so I have to take some responsibility as well for the tone of our discussions. This thread is an excellent example.

Anyway, you were here long before I was, and I'm sure you'll be here long after I'm gone. (I think I've pretty much used up my usefulness around here anyway, and I miss Jules. Maybe time to move on...) And oh yeah... that part about me being envious of you? To my knowledge I'm not particularly envious of anyone... but if I was, and this is not meant as an insult, I can think of a few thousand people who would be ahead of you on the list... not because of anything you are or aren't. Just that I don't know shit about you, other than what you post. Like a great piece of music, from time to time I read a post that is so artfully written, so informative, or so knowledgeable that I could conceivably say "damn, i wouldn't mind having written that." Guess what? I don't remember any of them being yours... So much for the "envy"...
 
When we did Bobby Rock's 'Metalmorphosis' instructional video, I asked Jack Joseph Puig what he thought was most important in getting the best sound on tape.

In spite of Bobby being one of the best drummers in the world... playing a $25,000 kit....

He said it was these three little MGM mics from the 30's.

"I wouldn't be worth shit without those mics." he said.

They weren't stock, anymore. They had been rebuilt and "turbo-charged" as Jack disclosed.

Of course, that isn't all that was required to get that killer sound... but of all the variables involved... those mics were Jack's self-proclaimed claim to fame.

(Of course, Jack is a monster... and I think he could've made ME sound good, too)
 
littledog said:
I think I've pretty much used up my usefulness around here anyway, and I miss Jules. Maybe time to move on...

I guess that means we'll be seeing more of you at Gearslutz, then? ;)

No one ever "moves on," LD, they just type in a different URL.
 
chessrock said:
And I don't know about you, but I have a rental shop close by that can get me just about anything I'd need for a day or two. Usually around $50 - 75. Pretty reasonable.

I sure hope that wasn't a rental kit on "Just Like So" on your examples page. :)
 
This thread is really a bummer.

:(

Don't go littledog, don't go.

<sniff>
 
IMO, the room plays a VERY important role in getting a Bonham sound, besides drumset, heads etc....

Amund
 
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