How to get the real sound

[chessrock]

I sure hope that wasn't a rental kit on "Just Like So" on your examples page.

Yea, you bring up a really good example of what happens when people bring in crappy-sounding kits. I tried to warn them.

 

[nicolaad30]

I know there's a lot of people that can afford the drum set of their dreams, but there also (most of them) people that has just the basics.

The point is that you can make the nice drums to sound like shit and the simple one to souhnd like a god with micing tachniques. It not only depends on the drums...

This is for all of you thinking that the drums make the sound...

 

[theletterq]

The point is that you can make the nice drums to sound like shit and the simple one to souhnd like a god with micing tachniques. It not only depends on the drums...

This is for all of you thinking that the drums make the sound...

I believe you are somewhat off base here. This is probably now better suited for the drum forum, but in my opinion (others may want to flip-flop these a little) the key to getting a drum sound is:

1. The drums
2. The drummer
3. The room
4. The tuning
5. The heads
6. The mics/technique
7. Any effects, compression, etc.

These can be interchanged a little depending on what kind of sound you are trying to achieve. I will admit that a crap set can work for either a muffled or deep, low sound, but it is extremely difficult to achieve a beautiful, warm, open, resonant, perfectly tuned sound with a crappy, non-maintained, poorly manufactured drum. We're getting into the actual physics of sound here - bearing edges, etc.

 

[kjam22]

Just wanted to reply a little. First let me say that nothing Chessrock said to me has hurt my feelings in anyway.

I've been playing a long time and I play a variety of instruments. And for me ... micing a drumkit is not easy.

Certainly the drummer and the drums are important. And I'm not primarily a drummer. But the mics and technique are important as well. And I'm sure that I could mic a good drumer on Chess's kit and make him sound bad.

That being said.... you can go to

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=2124&alid=-1

There are several songs there.. all from my studio. All the same drummer (me) and all on the same kit except the song "set my soul free". I played all of the instruments on all of the tracks on all the songs. But you'll find different sounding drums on each. And in my mind.... none of them sound like I want them to sound. Hmmmm... But the point is that how you record them makes a substantial difference.

Listen to "Dead Flowers".... and then listen to "Untitled", then "What You Dream" .... same kit, same drummer.

 

[kjam22]

One more thought..... If anyone (including Chessrock) has some suggestions how I can achieve a better drum sound (besides buy a new kit and hire a drummer) I'm wide open for suggestions. Typical micing technique is two sm-81 overheads, beta 52 in kick, and 57 on snare. Recording into a yamaha aw4416.

Thanks for any ideas.

 

[chessrock]

One more thought..... If anyone (including Chessrock) has some suggestions how I can achieve a better drum sound (besides buy a new kit and hire a drummer) I'm wide open for suggestions. Typical micing technique is two sm-81 overheads, beta 52 in kick, and 57 on snare.

That setup should do it. Very similar to my own -- maybe a little better.

After you get the whole drummer / technique / kit thing down, the next things to be mindful of are:

1) I apologize, as I don't know how advanced your knowlege is, but I'll mention this one just in case -- Phase. Make sure the tracks are in-phase. You can do this during tracking or mixing. If you have a typical software setup like cakewalk, cooledit, or whatever . . . zoom in really close to the wave forms. Now look at the snare track and the overhead track -- one on top of the other -- and make sure the peaks and troughs (valleys) of the snare track are in perfect (or close to) alignment with the snare hits on the overhead tracks.

Now do the same with the kick.

2) EQ : 2.5 khz is the golden frequency -- on snare, it will give you more crack, and on kick it will give you more click. The tricky part is that on overheads, it will also make the cymbals sound like ass . . . so first you gotta' gate the snare and kick, then give 2.5k a boost on kick if it needs more click, and / or snare if that needs more crack.

If the snare needs more meat, then boost 200 hz.

You might also make it a rule to cut 400 hz (with a very wide Q) generously from the snare, as well -- it will make it sound tighter and it will also sit in the mix better.

Anyway, don't be afraid to be dramatic when EQ-ing the snare track, as you want it to compensate for whatever is too present -- or what is missing -- on what the overhead tracks have already captured. If the snare from the overhead tracks sound too dull, then you might find yourself boosting 2.5k on the snare track by as much as 10 dbs -- or low-shelving everything below 1.8 khz or whatever it takes to give you the crack that's missing from the OH's. Or cutting, obviously, if there's too much crack and/or not enough meat.

3) Limit and compress. If you want the drums to have more attack, then compress. Fiddle around with attack/release times untill you get it the way you want it.

If you want the drums to sound more powerful, then Limit. Waves' L2 and/or L1 (plugins) is great. Sonic Timeworks mastering compressor is another one I like for more extreme effects. Don't be afraid to be heavy-handed, but be mindful of how it effects the dynamic element of the drum track.


These are some fairly basic things. Again, all three really don't mean much when compared to the skills of the drummer and the sound of the kit.


If you want to hear first-hand what a difference the kit and drummer make, go here and scroll down to number 5 - Just Like So for an example of a decent drummer with a bad kit. The snare and toms sounded dead and the hi-hat was chunky, and there wasn't much I could do about it because that was the sound.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1298&alid=-1

Now check out any of the songs on this page. Song 3 in particular. A pretty noticeable difference, isn't there? Now keep in mind these drum tracks were recorded in the exact same room using the exact same techniques with the exact same mics:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1298&alid=475

The big difference between the two? The first was a decent drummer with a dead-sounding kit. The second was a great drummer with a great kit (who you've also probably heard on the radio once or twice, by the way, because he played on a very popular song about 5 years ago).

Here's another example of a great drummer / great kit:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/album.php?aid=1298&alid=357

Again, tracked and mixed the exact same way in the same place with the same mics, etc. Yet, very different sounding from both of the earlier examples. Very easy for me to get a good sound, obviously, when working with someone like that. This was a professional session drummer, and you can tell by the kind of sound he gets from his drums.

I could have stuck any old mics up in any old fashion, and it probably would have still sounded good in that example.

 

[Jack Hammer]

It seems like an important issue was j¨st touched upon and that is the tuning of the drums. my experience is that good drummers know how to tune thier drums, good studio drummers know how to tune their drums for the studio, great drummers know how to tune thier drums with the studio, mics and tpe of music all taken into consideration.

 

[littledog]

2) EQ : 25 khz is the golden frequency -- on snare, it will give you more crack, and on kick it will give you more click. The tricky part is that on overheads, it will also make the cymbals sound like ass . . . so first you gotta' gate the snare and kick, then give 25k a boost on kick if it needs more click, and / or snare if that needs more crack.

Intriguing. First I thought maybe a typo (for 2.5k?) but you repeated it twice, so I'll assume it is correct.

Questions:

Which EQ's have you found that let you boost 25 khz? (I'm pretty sure none of mine do!)

Are you recording at 88.1 or higher? Otherwise, at 44.1 or 48, how do you get around the Nyquist Theorem?

Is boosting 25khz a good frequency for driving rodents and insects out of your house (as some people say)? The hell with the sound of the kick - I've got mice I'm trying to get rid of!

If you don't happen to own a dog, how do you know when you've added enough?

 

[chessrock]

Thanks for the corrections, LD.

I've made the necessary revisions above -- in bold, so as to make it Littledog proof.

Yes, folks, in case you couldn't have used deductive reasoning to perhaps figured out yourself that it was, indeed, a typo. I was refering to the frequency of 2,500 hz . Just so you didn't think I was trying to drive your dogs crazy or anything . . .

Once more for our friend, Littledog, that's two-thousand five-hundred, hertz.

Hey, LD, I thought you were going to Gearsluts to "hang" with your "pal," Jules. I thought he might be touched by the fact that you missed him.

 

[kjam22]

I'm with you on the EQ and I'm typically in that ballpark. I think the sound I'm looking for is close... but I haven't really obtained it yet.

No doubt I'm not a great drummer. Not a lot I can do about that. And my kit is 6 month old Pearl Export. Sabien cymbals. To me... it sounds much better live than it does when I record it. That's why I feel like I'm not doing something right when recording it.

Since I'm on a Yamaha hard disk recorder.... I'll do some checking to see about Phase. I had not thought of that... and that might make a lot of sense.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[littledog]

Thanks for the corrections, LD.

I've made the necessary revisions above -- in bold, so as to make it Littledog proof.

Yes, folks, in case you couldn't have used deductive reasoning to perhaps figured out yourself that it was, indeed, a typo. I was refering to the frequency of 2,500 hz . Just so you didn't think I was trying to drive your dogs crazy or anything . . .

Once more for our friend, Littledog, that's two-thousand five-hundred, hertz.

Hey, LD, I thought you were going to Gearsluts to "hang" with your "pal," Jules. I thought he might be touched by the fact that you missed him.

Thanks for the corrections. I suspected as much, but I wasn't sure that you might have discovered a secret technique. Anybody who ever painted houses (or read Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison) knows that to get the best white paint, you add a little black. I thought maybe it was something like that only in this case adding a supersonic frequency. Oh well, nothing quite so sexy as it turns out.

Thanks also for your personal concern and interest. As it turns out, Jules is very happy to have me back. I'm sure you'll survive quite nicely in spite of my greatly diminished posts here. And believe it or not, there are some people who consider me a friend (or pal) without quotation marks around the word.

Glad to see you didn't take my sincere questions as a personal attack, for a change. Good luck.

 

[theletterq]

I'm with you on the EQ and I'm typically in that ballpark. I think the sound I'm looking for is close... but I haven't really obtained it yet.

No doubt I'm not a great drummer. Not a lot I can do about that. And my kit is 6 month old Pearl Export. Sabien cymbals. To me... it sounds much better live than it does when I record it. That's why I feel like I'm not doing something right when recording it.

Since I'm on a Yamaha hard disk recorder.... I'll do some checking to see about Phase. I had not thought of that... and that might make a lot of sense.

Thanks for the advice.

Quick question. What exactly are you not liking about your drum sound? Toms? Snare? Kick? Everything? Phase is definitley something to look into. What is your overhead positioning?

If it's the toms you may want to explore close miking, especially if you're in a less than perfect room. Just another in a myriad of suggestions to think about. I'll listen to your samples a little later.

 

[chessrock]

After listening to your stuff, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the sound of the kit or the way your're playing.

Your style just seems to be very laid-back, ala Grateful Dead as opposed to Led Zep or Pearl Jam. I really like your tunes, by the way. Very impressive stuff.

Paying more attention to phase will give everything more clarity and focus . . . but other than that, it sounds like you have all the tools. Your kit and playing are more than adequate for the style of music you're doing -- it's a good fit, actually.

If anyting, you might just keep trying to improve on your overall recording and mixing skills. Just plain better recordings in general will make everything sound better, including the drums.

 

[kjam22]

Quick question. What exactly are you not liking about your drum sound? Toms? Snare? Kick? Everything? Phase is definitley something to look into. What is your overhead positioning?


Toms sound thinner than they do live.

I've pretty much got the kick figured out. I can get the click.. or whatever I want for different songs there. I can beef it up or whatever.

I can get a decent snare sound... but not a real quality sudio snare sound. I'm using a 57. Bringing it on a goosneck under the highhat... . pointed down about 45degrees and about an inch above the snare head. Pointed toward the middle of the snare. Pickup end is about 1 1/2 inches on the inside edge of the rim.

sm81 overheads. This pearl export kit has two mounted toms, one floor tom, and one little tom mounted on a cymbal stand. Have it mounted on crash next to the highhat. Two crashes, ride and a hat.

Both mic's are equal distance from the center of the snare. (used tape measure) Left is left of snare, in front of snare, about half way between crash and snare. Pretty much above the cymbal mounted tom. Right one is straight right of snare, above floor tom and ride. They are just above top of your head high when you're sitting on the throne. Both are pointed straight down.

I've tried other overhead settings... but on what you heard on the tracks... that's the setting.

Like I said.. I really appreciate any suggestions.

 

[kjam22]

After listening to your stuff, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the sound of the kit or the way your're playing.

Your style just seems to be very laid-back, ala Grateful Dead as opposed to Led Zep or Pearl Jam. I really like your tunes, by the way. Very impressive stuff.

Paying more attention to phase will give everything more clarity and focus . . . but other than that, it sounds like you have all the tools. Your kit and playing are more than adequate for the style of music you're doing -- it's a good fit, actually.

If anyting, you might just keep trying to improve on your overall recording and mixing skills. Just plain better recordings in general will make everything sound better, including the drums.

Chess. THanks for the compliments. I wasn't really fishing for one... but it is appreciated. I've not messed much with the phasing on my AW4416. I need to read up on this for the recorder and make sure I have everything the way it should be. That is a really good place to start.

 

[theletterq]

I may see close mics on the toms in your future - doesn't have to be anything extravagant, just something to add a little beef and attack. Or play with the overhead EQ, which gets tricky with the cymbals in there. A bigger, deeper, larger tuning may help as well.

Try experimenting with your snare mic positioning. I've found on my snare, that it benefits from having the mic up and out a little - about an inch or so outside the rim and up about 2-3 inches. This gives the sound a little room to develop.

Remember that most "studio" snare sounds are either samples, compressed with a very good compressor, EQ'd with a very good EQ or played very hard with rimshots which deliver that smacky, crack sound.

 

[kjam22]

I may see close mics on the toms in your future - doesn't have to be anything extravagant, just something to add a little beef and attack. Or play with the overhead EQ, which gets tricky with the cymbals in there. A bigger, deeper, larger tuning may help as well.

Try experimenting with your snare mic positioning. I've found on my snare, that it benefits from having the mic up and out a little - about an inch or so outside the rim and up about 2-3 inches. This gives the sound a little room to develop.

Remember that most "studio" snare sounds are either samples, compressed with a very good compressor, EQ'd with a very good EQ or played very hard with rimshots which deliver that smacky, crack sound.

I'll try that with the snare. Someone mentioned a LD Condenser in front of the kit. I might try that. I could eq it for beefy drums and let the overheads take care of the cymbals.

 

[scottr]

I'm sure there's plenty of documentation of some type somwhere of the type of drums Bonham used . . . how he tuned them . . . how hard he hit them, etc. etc. etc.

And I don't know about you, but I have a rental shop close by that can get me just about anything I'd need for a day or two. Usually around $50 - 75. Pretty reasonable.

Go ahead and stick your room mics up and compress 'em good. You're still not going to sound a damn thing like Bonham . . . not even remotely close -- perhaps a sad, sick comparison at best . . . utill you figure out how to get his sound on your own. And once that's accomplished, I'll guarantee you I could put up a couple mics overhead, one on kick and one on the snare . . . slap on some "huge-ass tank" or "warehouse" reverb and compress the crap out of it and it will likely sound like a reasonable approximation that would do Bonham proud.

Its really strange that I see this thread now.. Coincidentally, I am recording a band, the Charm City Players, in a warehouse. The producer wants the led zeppelin drum sound. I have access to LOTS of different mics. I guess thats pretty coincidental.

But the really funny part is that the recording space happens to be in back of a drum rental warehouse. So we have access to whatever drums we want. Furthermore, I've seen this guy play-hes no jon bonham- but he sounds great in this room.. real big sound. So how do I capture it? NOW do we have a discussion??

Scott

 

[Joe Recorder]

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26147

 

[pundit]

I recorded a demo in my loungeroom about eight years ago.
For the drumkit I used a pair of Radio Shack PZM's (9volt battery and balanced) on a 1 metre square panel bisecting the kit through the snare and ,wait for it, a Shure SM58 on the kick.
That was it! To be frank... that was all I had to work with at the time!

The drummer said his kit sounded better than the three days he spent in a studio in Germany with a dozen mikes hung all over the place. Phasing problems?!!

Of course what helped was a great sounding kit and someone that knew how to hit it.

The kick required a fair bit of work to make it sound reasonably solid and a couple of dB pulled out of the PZM's at about 300hz with a few added around 80hz to compensate for the lack of proximty effect of close miked toms seemed to work.

Sometimes less is more!