How many use a sub with their monitors?

[mixmkr]

I use some old JBL 4311 speakers that I've gotten used to over the many years. (3 way, 12" woofers... about 8 ft apart and sitting about that far back too)
My room is decently treated with traps, etc..

My mixes translate well and compared to stuff I've had mastered, seem in the ball park.


However, as of late, I seem to enjoy running the 2 buss thru some bass enhancement...basically only for listening purposes and REALLY try and keep the 2 buss clean when mixing/exporting a stereo mix.

I'm talking when I'm listening at 100dB too. Makes the mixes really "thump" in a good way. "Warms" it up too, for whatever that useless term is.

Around 85dB, sounds OK, but isn't really needed, and actually just sounds like the old "loudness" buttons on the receiver.

Is a sub in my future? Seems alien for mixing... or not?

Obviously, I could see my mixes being "bass light" in the future, but for pure ear candy, I like the lower emphasis.

I'm using a low end QSC amp too, if that matters....about 150 watts per channel into the JBLs


so...to sum up.... the louder I listen to, the more I'm tempted to turn up the bass. Probably just completely opposite of what you'd think. This includes my "outsourced" masteried stuff too.

Maybe just some 2010 monitors !!

 

[frederic]

I have a sub, and with a gizmo I made I can switch it into the stereo monitoring buss, or switch it to the sub channel for surround mixing, or I can switch it off entirely.

For stereo mixing, which is most of what I do, I often switch it on and off to hear the mix with and without the sub, just to get a better feel how it sounds both ways.

 

[mixmkr]

thx...

but I'm finding an "addiction" to pumping up the bass when listening. And of course, I can only change things on the 2 buss or an outboard EQ, etc.. none that I want to do really.

The old JBL have level controls for the tweets and midrange, but turning that down just makes 'em dull sounding.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I use some old JBL 4311 speakers that I've gotten used to over the many years. (3 way, 12" woofers... about 8 ft apart and sitting about that far back too)
My room is decently treated with traps, etc..

My mixes translate well and compared to stuff I've had mastered, seem in the ball park.


However, as of late, I seem to enjoy running the 2 buss thru some bass enhancement...basically only for listening purposes and REALLY try and keep the 2 buss clean when mixing/exporting a stereo mix.

I'm talking when I'm listening at 100dB too. Makes the mixes really "thump" in a good way. "Warms" it up too, for whatever that useless term is.

Around 85dB, sounds OK, but isn't really needed, and actually just sounds like the old "loudness" buttons on the receiver.

Is a sub in my future? Seems alien for mixing... or not?

Obviously, I could see my mixes being "bass light" in the future, but for pure ear candy, I like the lower emphasis.

I'm using a low end QSC amp too, if that matters....about 150 watts per channel into the JBLs


so...to sum up.... the louder I listen to, the more I'm tempted to turn up the bass. Probably just completely opposite of what you'd think. This includes my "outsourced" masteried stuff too.

Maybe just some 2010 monitors !!

We have a pair of 4411s in our CR, powered by a pair of BGW amps strapped to 200w a side. Not exactly the same thing as the 4311, but pretty close.

I know it's a subjective/personal opinion thing, but I'd have a hard time imagining pairing them - or any other typical vintage paper 12" 3-way - with a sub. While the response on the 4311s is not very extended on the low end - good to maybe around 45Hz - what it does deliver has that full, kind of flabby-but-very-robust bass typical of a decent 12" ported design. While one can get a sub to extend that range, you'd probably wind up setting the sub crossover in such a way where the 12"ers in the JBLs would either be mostly silenced in one direction, or where they'd be stepping on the job of the sub in the other.

Personally, I don't like mixing on subs unless I'm specifically mixing for playback on a sub (i.e. hip hop automobile music, dance mixes, or 5.1 surround sound), and would much rather have well-translatable pairs to work on. It sounds like you can translate fine, so that's not an issue for you.

Maybe you might want to look into driver and foam replacement within the cabinet, especially if you still have the original 1974 drivers in there, to help tighten up some flab you might be getting from (maybe) old, weathered drivers. Brand new 12"ers could give you enough ear candy bass for cheaper than adding a sub. Just an offered option, is all.

G.

 

[mixmkr]

thx guys. Yep, original drivers and cones. I guess I could find a decent place and try reconing them. Not sure if that's really the answer and in a way a little hesitant since I THINK I know the speakers pretty good.

It's just that smiley EQ curve sounds so good... maybe I'm just a "consumer"

 

[dintymoore]

I have a homemade sub setup that I like. It took me awhile to get it so that it was ok, and I use it along with my main speakers, NS-10m's. It's got a 12" sub speaker, not a name brand but some $75 dual coil (it's got L&R connections), an automotive crossover with a Harmon Kardon amp and a heavy homemade birch ply cabinet.

It's really hard to tell it's on until you switch it off. It's very subtle but it's enough to make the music feel right and stop me from always making mixes too bass'y because the NS-10m's are bass-weak.

What I've noticed is that many crossover points are too high. You have the fundamental, then an 8va (the octave), then a 5th in the harmonic series. You only want the fundamental to go through the subwoofer!

I've got my crossover at 48Hz. Many crossovers in factory made consumer subs use 80-120Hz which is fucked - it amplifies the 8va and sometimes even the 5th. They do that to get way, way more "cheap" volume.

That, to me is what's important, to make sure your crossover is low enough so you don't get the 8va.

If you get the 8va, and even the 5th, then those will be doubled in the main (non-sub) speakers and it will be boomy and undefined.

 

[suprstar]

I have an active sub in my setup, b/c I mix WAAY to bass-heavy without it. It's is made for my monitors, so it's supposedly crossed over perfectly, etc.. I got subs in the car, the stereo upstairs, everywhere I listen to music. I'm too used to hearing the far low end, and my monitors sound really really weak without the sub. I like to know what is down there in the 60Hz and under range, otherwise bass is all over the place when I listen to it elsewhere.

 

[miroslav]

I never found a real need for a sub...my Mackie HR824 monitors have more than enough low end kick.

 

[mixmkr]

I used of the Mackies when they first came out, but the studio they were in, I thought they were placed too far away and almost verged on mid-field.
I didn't get a fair shake with them, but it made me think they were undersized.

Do yours have the rear dampener on them, or whatever that is?

 

[miroslav]

You mean the passive radiator...yes, my 824 monitors have it.

Mackie provides pretty good instructions for placement depending on your room size.

Mine are about 2' from the front wall...plus, a lot can depend on how you set the rear options for Acoustic Space, Low End and Highs.
They aren't hitting true sub territory, but they do go down lower than most comparable monitors.

I guess a lot depends on the music you are going to be mainly doing that will tell if the sub is a real necessity, but hey, if you like working with a sub and it doesn’t skew your mix decisions...ain't nothing wrong with that.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I also have a pair of 824s at my home desk; when I get some free time in the studio to just mess around I definitely want to bring them in there just to see how they sound in there. I love them at home, and would love to mix on them in the studio as well.

It's an interesting contrast between the home desk and the studio control room. In the CR, we have the JBLs as mentioned, along with a pair of Event 20/20 powered nearfields. As compared to the Mackies, the CR setup is more midrange-centric, nowhere near as crisp above 8k or so, and the difference between the 12" JBLs and the ~9" Mackies on the low end is noticeable; they both push plenty of air and deliver bass, but the extended range and accuracy of punch of the Mackies is - for my ear - superior. the best way I can describe it is that with the Mackies, you can hear where the bass in the signal ends, whereas with the JBLs, the end of the low end just kind of fades out without definition.

The interesting thing to me is that, while I greatly prefer the sound of the Mackies, the JBLs are just as easy to translate; i.e. the difference in sound doesn't really get in the way of my tracking or mixing, nor do I really notice it once I'm into a session. If anything, maybe the JBLs are a bit more fatiguing over the long haul, but that's for my ears; I'd bet that when I bring my Mackies in there, that at least one of my partners will find them more fatiguing because they like the midrangey sound better.

G.

 

[mixmkr]

the JBLs do have a bump around 2K I'm thinking... or maybe that's the SM58

anyrate, they are mid-rangy and definately not the "smiley curve" speakers.

I understand about the low end just fading away. I imagine it's a critical point that slopes off pretty quick... maybe 35Htz as a guess.

Maybe I should pick up some used Mackies. I have a buddy buying some LSR series and maybe he'll let me hook them up for a night.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

the JBLs do have a bump around 2K I'm thinking... or maybe that's the SM58

anyrate, they are mid-rangy and definately not the "smiley curve" speakers.

I understand about the low end just fading away. I imagine it's a critical point that slopes off pretty quick... maybe 35Htz as a guess.

Maybe I should pick up some used Mackies. I have a buddy buying some LSR series and maybe he'll let me hook them up for a night.

You'd probably find this PDF of the spec manual for the 4311 interesting.

Good call on the midrange bump; there's one at about 2-2.5k, with another large one at about 6k. On the low end, it looks like it rolls off fairly sharply below ~45Hz.

I'd be interested in hearing your eval of the LSR series speakers. I make no promises either way with those, as I have no experience with the LSRs. I suspect they will have a somewhat different personality than the HRs, but that's just am edumacated guess .

G.

 

[frederic]

Here is how I have my studio monitors wired. Mostly these days I do stereo work however when I built my studio 4-5 years ago I anticipated doing a lot of surround work, so I wired the studio for stereo and surround (5.1 and 7.1).

In stereo mode only the front left and front right monitors are getting a signal, and if I select it the subwoofer will also. In the "matrix crossover" are several filters so the sub is fed 20-45 hz whether it gets the sum of stereo left and right (or) fed by it's own buss in surround mode.

All the other monitors have a filter as well, blocking less than 40hz, and that's bypassable across all channels simultaniously.

The "matrix crossover" is just a bunch of op-amps, an +/- 16V power supply, basic filters with a very sharp rolloff, and some digital chips to switch between the various hard-wired modes.

Mixing in surround is fine, but to encode it I have to take the 6 or 8 output wav files and process them with a piece of software - an encoder - so they comply to whatever standard/format I am required to mix in - THX, Dolby, etc.

I haven't purchased any encoder software because I haven't had any paying jobs that required surround. But, the capability is there even though I never really use it at this point.

If you're all talking about the JBL LSR series, particular the 28P's for monitors and the 12P for sub, they have a very clean, tight sound to them. Bass is clean and not thumpy on either and the highs aren't gritty or shitty in any way and high volume is adjustable a few db, though I don't remember if it's +/- 2db or +/- 4db. They are in my opinion very good monitors. But they're JBL, we shouldn't be surprised with that.

Those are the only LSR series monitors I've heard simply because they're flush-mounted in a friend's home studio. For stereo mixing, which I've done in his studio a couple of times now, I found that the 28P's produced enough bass that the 12P subwoofer wasn't necessary at all. They're very flat, full coverage monitors.


Anyway, monitor/amp diagram: