N
nomadx
Jiminy Crickett
One thing that sucks is when the vocalist seems to be impeccable (because of the pitch correction), only to find out at the live show that they really stink.
How many people here DON'T use pitch correction in there mixes?
C
CMB Studios
New member
If my names going to be on it as the engineer then im going to make it sound as good as i can... if their "fans" are disappointed to find that the singer isnt as good as he represents himself as in the recordings then i dont see that as my problem... however... if other engineers or studio's hear my product and hear an incredibly out of tune singer without me doing anything to help then they are either going to assume "the engineer doesnt know how to fix bad vocals" or "the singer wanted it raw" ... but usually the first.
a usually trick i tend to use is have them sing it to the best of their ability with punch ins and pitch correction without worrying about artifacts... boost it in the mix a bit and have them sing it again while listening to the butchered vocal track thats already there as a guide.
Singers tend to stay in tune much better when they hear whats already there.
Then once everyone is satisfied with a "good take" ... thats when the real vocal processing begins.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I think one also has to take into account the song, the style of music....and the style of the singer.
There are famous singers who don't sing perfectly, and even go off-key obviously at times, but their voice and style is such that it just works as-is, so this new mentality of some productions to auto-tune everything as a regular process across all vocal track to make the singer sound perfect...doesn't always work well.
I also think that regular use of auto-tune has been driven a lot by its use as an effect...the "chirp"...and so, many young singers think it's normal to have that auto-tune precision and they live with the artifacts as part of their "normal" sound on many songs these days.
Besides that...the whole digital audio revolution has steered people more toward trying to make everything *perfect*...they have the tools, and it is possible.
There are famous singers who don't sing perfectly, and even go off-key obviously at times, but their voice and style is such that it just works as-is, so this new mentality of some productions to auto-tune everything as a regular process across all vocal track to make the singer sound perfect...doesn't always work well.
I also think that regular use of auto-tune has been driven a lot by its use as an effect...the "chirp"...and so, many young singers think it's normal to have that auto-tune precision and they live with the artifacts as part of their "normal" sound on many songs these days.
Besides that...the whole digital audio revolution has steered people more toward trying to make everything *perfect*...they have the tools, and it is possible.
N
nomadx
Jiminy Crickett
I can certainly understand the engineer's perspective. I don't do any engineering for other groups at the moment...maybe some day! I suppose my take would be the same; make it sound as good as it can sound and let the band worry about how to translate that to the stage.
C
CMB Studios
New member
thats a fair point but i think music is always adapting to fit its technological capabilities..
just like how electric guitar erupted when it was "new technology"...
People are now used to the notion of "perfect vocals" and its now something expected... when you can compare modern songs hearing a perfectly in tune song really exposes the flaws of one that isnt.
I say... find the balance.
N
nomadx
Jiminy Crickett
I suppose there is a noticeable benefit for bands with vocalists that can meet or beat their recording in a live/intimate live setting. This is where the money is made. Most people don't buy "records" any more.
snus
Banned
..
CrowsofFritz
Flamingo!
Well let's make one thing clear, we can't make American Idol tryout-ers sound impeccable. You need to already have a good vocal to sound better.
snus
Banned
Boy, Neil Young comes to mind!
AutoTune drives me nuts. It is a quick way to suck life out of a track. But, sometimes it is just needed. It is a great tool to use when it is right for the production. I think it is often just used as a crutch. I used to work with a local prominent engineer/producer who would put it on EVER vocal track as a default! I would sneak around and turn them off here and there just to see if he could really tell. He NEVER caught me.
N
nomadx
Jiminy Crickett
hahaha...
The problem is that they invite the worst for the beginning of the season. They just make noises with their mouths. I don't think it can be called singing. Apparently it's good for ratings.
Don't get me wrong; I like to hear a singer with good pitch, but I can also really dig a singer that's not so great in the pitch department that has great feeling and presence.
snus
Banned
Armistice
Son of Yoda
I've recently been getting into the Afghan Whigs, and whoever the lead singer is has about the worst pitch control I've ever heard, but it wouldn't be the same if he sang completely in tune. Somehow it works...
Farview
Well-known member
I tend to use an old version of auto-tune to fix bad notes because the graphic interface lets you simply move the performance of the note more on pitch than it was without flattening out the way it was performed.
In other words, if there was vibrato on a held note and it was a little off pitch, I would grab the vibrato and move it so that it is centered on the appropriate pitch.
I only use it when necessary, not because I'm against it, but because it's a time consuming pain in the butt to make it sound natural. Also, if something is so pitchy that the whole performance needs to be tuned, the pitch is generally not the only problem with the performance.
In other words, if there was vibrato on a held note and it was a little off pitch, I would grab the vibrato and move it so that it is centered on the appropriate pitch.
I only use it when necessary, not because I'm against it, but because it's a time consuming pain in the butt to make it sound natural. Also, if something is so pitchy that the whole performance needs to be tuned, the pitch is generally not the only problem with the performance.
snus
Banned
Imagine the White Stripes having perfect vocal tuning. One this is for sure, CMB will never get his name on a White Stripes album, because, well, he isn't going to have his name on something out of tune!
heatmiser
mr. green christmas
If Celine Dion was singing for me...I would apply mute.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
And this is what I was getting at.
Heck, the best thing about digital audio is its editing power. That's the thing that really sets it apart from analog recording, and not what most analog/digital debates are about...the audio quality.
So I got no gripes with editing....and adjusting notes to pitch is an editing process...not much different than EQ or compression...etc.
The part where something like pitch correction and precision track editing takes on a negative process, IMHO...is when it's done to take a performance beyond what the artist is truly capable of....slapping auto-tune on a track as a default process is often doing just that.
We all know when that line is being crossed, and it's up to each person to decide how far they want to lower integrity for the sake of perfection.
I'm not being a snob about integrity in audio productions....heck, I chuckle at the guys who will do 85 takes of a guitar track in an attempt to get the lead all down in one pass (never mind it took them 85 passes) rather than punch-in to fix a couple of bad spots or do a comp from 2-3 solid takes....but then you have the guys who will record/edit a track note-by-note in order to achieve absolute precision...and that is IMO a bit fake and certainly tosses integrity out the window.
Now some decisions are driven by $$$...and it's not easy to walk away from a paycheck over auto-tune or excessive editing to make an artist sound perfect, not to mention, there's always that view that "no one will really know"....but I would think the engineer, producer and certainly the artist knows he/she ain't cutting it.
Now if the artist is clueless about his/her performance suckage...and everyone around is willing to polish their turds and never let them know....there's something wrong there IMO.
Like someone said...there has to be some balance and the occasional reality check by all...after that, use the tools to churn out a good product. That's what it's all about.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
You don't have to like her songs to acknowledge that she sings very well and in key.
After Titanic...I don't think I could listen to any Celine Dion either.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
No offence intended.....but no guarantees either !
Nay, Amos !
I do understand where you're coming from as an engineer but I think that's sailed beyond the wind, not just close to it. Lots of people work hard at their singing. Good pitch, frankly, is the bottom line. People go on about it as though it were this hugely unattainable thing. Blimey, in most of the world where people sing, it's a standard requirement !
Hey, wouldn't it be funny if recording labels/companies said "We ain't shelling out any money on studio time for someone that can't sing !".
While it's quite true that the average punter couldn't give a toss about whether real drums or EZ drummer, real instruments or VSTis are used, I find that one thing that most people that I know are united on, they can tell when a singer is off. Even those that can't sing themselves.
I think you present some interesting posts and are generally very readable and have an opinion on alot of things that forms good food for thought.......however, the implications of that statement are just plain insulting. Because the clear, inescapable conclusion to draw from that is that anyone that has the balls to say "I don't need pitch correction" is self righteous.
Nay, Amos !
I do understand where you're coming from as an engineer but I think that's sailed beyond the wind, not just close to it. Lots of people work hard at their singing. Good pitch, frankly, is the bottom line. People go on about it as though it were this hugely unattainable thing. Blimey, in most of the world where people sing, it's a standard requirement !
Hey, wouldn't it be funny if recording labels/companies said "We ain't shelling out any money on studio time for someone that can't sing !".
While it's quite true that the average punter couldn't give a toss about whether real drums or EZ drummer, real instruments or VSTis are used, I find that one thing that most people that I know are united on, they can tell when a singer is off. Even those that can't sing themselves.
Mo Facta
Farts of Nature
I would prefer not to, because it means less work! A vocalist who can sing IN TUNE??? WOW! What a concept!
But alas, I end up using it. Mostly Vari-Audio (in Cubase), which is very similar to Melodyne and I don't need an extra program open to accomplish the same thing.
The fact of the matter is that pitch correction is a tool that is used in a specific situation to correct a problem or supply an effect (that I'm sure we can all agree that we abhor). Obvious, right? However some styles, by nature, will be cheapened if you pitch correct and sometimes you can't do it at all if you've taken a whole band live and there is bleed. For the most part, like 99% of the time, standard pop and rock will not suffer from a bit of pitch correction.
Like Jimmy said, if you do it right, it's unnoticeable. It's actually all in the transitions between notes and Vari-Audio (and I'm sure Melodyne) has a nice set of tools that enable you to smooth out the artifacts that are created between notes when you quantize them. I have made some pretty awful singers sound tolerable this way and you'd never tell. We should actually do a contextual blind test around here and see who can make the most believable tuned vocal. heh heh
There's also the approach of applying an iterative quantize so that notes are closer to where they need to be based on a percentage value instead of hard quantizing. In Vari-Audio it's as simple as selecting all the pitch events and pulling a slider. The more you pull it, the harder the quantize.
There is definitely an art to proper pitch correction with minimal artifacts. There will always be artifacts but most of the time, if it's done correctly, you don't notice them at all in the mix due to the masking effect.
My 2c (ZAR)
Cheers
But alas, I end up using it. Mostly Vari-Audio (in Cubase), which is very similar to Melodyne and I don't need an extra program open to accomplish the same thing.
The fact of the matter is that pitch correction is a tool that is used in a specific situation to correct a problem or supply an effect (that I'm sure we can all agree that we abhor). Obvious, right? However some styles, by nature, will be cheapened if you pitch correct and sometimes you can't do it at all if you've taken a whole band live and there is bleed. For the most part, like 99% of the time, standard pop and rock will not suffer from a bit of pitch correction.
Like Jimmy said, if you do it right, it's unnoticeable. It's actually all in the transitions between notes and Vari-Audio (and I'm sure Melodyne) has a nice set of tools that enable you to smooth out the artifacts that are created between notes when you quantize them. I have made some pretty awful singers sound tolerable this way and you'd never tell. We should actually do a contextual blind test around here and see who can make the most believable tuned vocal. heh heh
There's also the approach of applying an iterative quantize so that notes are closer to where they need to be based on a percentage value instead of hard quantizing. In Vari-Audio it's as simple as selecting all the pitch events and pulling a slider. The more you pull it, the harder the quantize.
There is definitely an art to proper pitch correction with minimal artifacts. There will always be artifacts but most of the time, if it's done correctly, you don't notice them at all in the mix due to the masking effect.
My 2c (ZAR)
Cheers
CrowsofFritz
Flamingo!
Hey, I'm all for that.
I'll actually contribute a vocal track.... as soon as I get a new desktop. We can make a special edition in the Mix This subforum.