How Many People Are Using Cassettes Here?

[lonewhitefly]

You didn't look at the boxes. Most of those tapes were recorded 1960-1970, way before sticky shed was an issue.

As for "digital storage relies on more sophisticated retrieval and reproduction mechanisms. Tape is a simple, straightforward technology. And machines to play them back for future archiving will be plenty available."

I completely disagree. Every computer for the past 30 years can play a wave file. Every cell phone in your pocket can play a wave file. It is the standard format for the world.
Disregarding the Walkmans, boomboxes and cheapo portable units, you won't walk into Best Buy and find a component grade cassette deck. Audio Advisor doesn't list one. MusicDirect has the Teac listed for $400, but no others. HighEndElectronics will gladly sell you a $40,000 Krell monoblock and all manner of turntables and digital players. They don't have a single cassette deck listed. Crutchfield has two listed, both Tascams, at $600 and $700. And Amazon. That's not a ringing endorsement of the format. Two manufacturers and a handful of sellers. I could actually get a better selection by going to a local repair shop. They have at least 3-5 units that they have repaired and have for sale.

RE: sticking them in a shoebox: I didn't use shoeboxes. But I do have a bit of experience with cassettes. Here's part of my collection , over 120. BASF Chrome, Maxell UDXL and TDK SA, Metal, Fuji FX. Scotch Ampex, Memorex, I've had them all. I've had the pads fall off the pressure piece. Memorex used foam rubber for a while which disintegrated. I've had them bind and accordion the tape until it stopped. Anything of special value has been dumped to digital. I've kept the cassettes because, basically, I'm a pack rat. I hate to throw things away. I still have the deck they were recorded on, and it works.. sort of. The rewind belt dissolved, but the drive belt is OK. I'm under no illusion that they are the ultimate in archival quality.

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Clearly we have different criteria, which is fine. As I said in an earlier post, you're welcome to spend your time and money however you wish. But thinking that the compact cassette will ever be more than a novelty in the future is fantasy.

I see some Scotch reels, but it’s hard to tell because there is paper glued over. But there’s clearly some latter-era Ampex tapes on the bottom row.

A WAV file is not a storage medium. A hard drive supposedly lasts 3-5 years, SD cards 10? The CD is the most reliably proven everyday digital storage method IMO. And I don’t think they will prove to be as reliable as cassettes ultimately.

I think maybe we’re having two different convos here. I’m talking about the ease in which something can be casually stored and retrieved by the original owner or others. Cassettes and vinyl are the most future-proof format there is IMO.

In any case, I’m not really commenting on how I spend my money or time. I don’t currently work with cassettes- other than releasing my albums on that format. My comments are based on the historical longevity of the format (coming up on 60 years), along with current trends of increases in production and sales. My comments are a prediction based on this information- take or leave my predictions. But I have been of this same opinion for about 15 years now, and I’ve been right so far- despite what the naysayers have been saying online for many years now.

 

[Smithers XKR]

I see some Scotch reels, but it’s hard to tell because there is paper glued over. But there’s clearly some latter-era Ampex tapes on the bottom row.

A WAV file is not a storage medium. A hard drive supposedly lasts 3-5 years, SD cards 10? The CD is the most reliably proven everyday digital storage method IMO. And I don’t think they will prove to be as reliable as cassettes ultimately.

I think maybe we’re having two different convos here. I’m talking about the ease in which something can be casually stored and retrieved by the original owner or others. Cassettes and vinyl are the most future-proof format there is IMO.

In any case, I’m not really commenting on how I spend my money or time. I don’t currently work with cassettes- other than releasing my albums on that format. My comments are based on the historical longevity of the format (coming up on 60 years), along with current trends of increases in production and sales. My comments are a prediction based on this information- take or leave my predictions. But I have been of this same opinion for about 15 years now, and I’ve been right so far- despite what the naysayers have been saying online for many years now.

I think this thread will run an run and never be resolved. I played an old factory tape of the Journey Escape album today through my DCC and old Technics amp and the wall speakers, then I played the same track from the PC on You Tube through the speakers and I honestly could not tell the difference.
I think it is time to close the arguement and just agree to differ

 

[clamsterdamm]

If you think I just sit here and listen to hissy tapes with phase issues, you’re wrong

I use ceramic Sony Super Metal Master cassettes on Quartz Locked 3 Head Closed Loop Dual Capstan Sony ES decks.

The sound quality has fooled many in blind tests. Thinking they were listening to MQA or FLAC files

And in most cases during that blind test they said the tape sounded better. Not your average cassettes and equipment. These are unicorns

I think listening to basic cassettes on basic decks are a waste of time if you are trying to get good sound. That’s where people get this whole cassette thing wrong. They bought crappy equipment and tapes instead of buying the top tier, and then they draw conclusions. You only know what you’ve been exposed to. The narrative about cassettes suddenly changes when you hear the format’s potential.

 

[Smithers XKR]

If you think I just sit here and listen to hissy tapes with phase issues, you’re wrong

I use ceramic Sony Super Metal Master cassettes on Quartz Locked 3 Head Closed Loop Dual Capstan Sony ES decks.

The sound quality has fooled many in blind tests. Thinking they were listening to MQA or FLAC files

And in most cases during that blind test they said the tape sounded better. Not your average cassettes and equipment. These are unicorns

I think listening to basic cassettes on basic decks are a waste of time if you are trying to get good sound. That’s where people get this whole cassette thing wrong. They bought crappy equipment and tapes instead of buying the top tier, and then they draw conclusions. You only know what you’ve been exposed to. The narrative about cassettes suddenly changes when you hear the format’s potential.

I am not disagreeing. I am on your side Clam and love top end gear. I have a DCC and love it mate. Went on the DCC website and learned how to clean the heads. Are you Dutch mate? Phillips company produced the greatest ever by comissioning the genius Mr Nakamichi engineer to create The Dragon

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If "nobody manufacturing cassette recorders today" is "the answer" - then the answer must be the opposite of what you are indicating ... because lots of cassette recorders are still manufactured.

Not only do you have these little things available at your friendly neighborhood Amazon; TEAC offers a nice unit, and Tascam offers an even nicer one ... and Marantz offers a comparable one too.

There may be others I'm not aware of, but a simple online search would clear up this misconception.

And again, anyone who says cassettes are over is not really paying attention IMO:

NDAs, Obsessive Buyers, and $400 for Sublime: Inside the Baffling Revival of the Cassette Tape

The humble cassette tape is in the midst of a revival, thanks to Billie Eilish, Taylor Swift, and other pop stars who are embracing the format.

www.rollingstone.com

The first product linked is sheer junk. I wouldn't put any tape I cared about in anything like that. The second has no actual Dolby NR, just a generic noise reduction for playback only. I doubt the transport is much good. The third link is probably the exact same product as the second, but with rack ears added. I'm sure the Marantz falls into the same category.

I'm pretty sure nobody makes transports of a grade anywhere near what was available at the peak of cassette usage.

 

[Smithers XKR]

If you think I just sit here and listen to hissy tapes with phase issues, you’re wrong

I use ceramic Sony Super Metal Master cassettes on Quartz Locked 3 Head Closed Loop Dual Capstan Sony ES decks.

The sound quality has fooled many in blind tests. Thinking they were listening to MQA or FLAC files

And in most cases during that blind test they said the tape sounded better. Not your average cassettes and equipment. These are unicorns

I think listening to basic cassettes on basic decks are a waste of time if you are trying to get good sound. That’s where people get this whole cassette thing wrong. They bought crappy equipment and tapes instead of buying the top tier, and then they draw conclusions. You only know what you’ve been exposed to. The narrative about cassettes suddenly changes when you hear the format’s potential.

I only use CR02 on my analogue decks and do not use analogue tapes on the DCC.

 

[lonewhitefly]

The first product linked is sheer junk. I wouldn't put any tape I cared about in anything like that. The second has no actual Dolby NR, just a generic noise reduction for playback only. I doubt the transport is much good. The third link is probably the exact same product as the second, but with rack ears added. I'm sure the Marantz falls into the same category.

I'm pretty sure nobody makes transports of a grade anywhere near what was available at the peak of cassette usage.

LOL … and your point is? This was a response to “no one is manufacturing cassette recorders anymore”, which is factually incorrect in spades.

I’m not speaking to the quality of any of these decks. But their mere existence illustrates the demand and current viability of the cassette format.

The whole point of my entry into this thread was in response to the old “oh cassettes are obsolete”, which people have been saying for 15 years at this point. It just isn’t true.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

LOL … and your point is? This was a response to “no one is manufacturing cassette recorders anymore”, which is factually incorrect in spades.

I’m not speaking to the quality of any of these decks. But their mere existence illustrates the demand and current viability of the cassette format.

The whole point of my entry into this thread was in response to the old “oh cassettes are obsolete”, which people have been saying for 15 years at this point. It just isn’t true.

Yes, as long as your standard for quality is low, you can still find something that will "play" your cassettes...for the moment. But it won't be long before even those products are discontinued. The EOL of cassettes has been in progress for some time.

 

[clamsterdamm]

There are so many nice cassette decks from Japan it’s insane. Also they kept the best models for themselves. It’s going to be a long time before cassettes become extinct. I’d say another 30 years before there is trouble. Everything might be close to worn out by then

 

[RFR]

Yes, as long as your standard for quality is low, you can still find something that will "play" your cassettes...for the moment. But it won't be long before even those products are discontinued. The EOL of cassettes has been in progress for some time.

For years I’ve dubbed CDs onto cassette for use in my cars. Remember when early CD players in cars would skip anytime you went over bumps in the road? That sucks.
Anyway back to my point. I’d dub cassettes from CDs in my studio listening on monitors. Now, maybe you have much better ears than I, but I found the cassettes I made to sound identical to the CD I copied it from in A/B comparisons.
So I don’t think the sound quality is bad at all. Good tape, good deck, good recording = Good sound. At least to me.

 

[Pinky]

Recording on tape has a sentimental meaning, there is an emotion behind it: the goal is "The Vibe"
When the ultimate goal is to have an emotion, then the tech specs are no longer important and all the hi-fi purist pedantry loses its meaning

Using tape to record and listen to music is an existential choice

When I say "psychoacoustics" pejoratively, this is what I mean. "Vibe" isn't a technical term, nor is it measurable. It's religion, no evidence just a 'feeling'. IE -- doesn't exist outside of the mind of the believer.

I'm not interested in the koolaid, so keep passing it among yourself just know that I'm here to push the glass aside and warn others who might be tempted to take a sip.

 

[lonewhitefly]

When I say "psychoacoustics" pejoratively, this is what I mean. "Vibe" isn't a technical term, nor is it measurable. It's religion, no evidence just a 'feeling'. IE -- doesn't exist outside of the mind of the believer.

I'm not interested in the koolaid, so keep passing it among yourself just know that I'm here to push the glass aside and warn others who might be tempted to take a sip.

Psychoacoustics is literally the science of the psychology behind people listening to audio. Music has no meaning without psychoacoustics. Not everything is "measurable", especially in something subjective like listening to music.

But what is objectively measurable is the increase in sales of cassette tapes. And what there is objective evidence for is the longevity of analog media vs. digital.

So who's drinking the koolaid?

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I have only bought a few pre-recorded tapes.
Among them was one of 'Jelly Roll Morton And His Red Hot Peppers'.
It was a crackly old recording, probably from the 78rpm days.
It was a good listen, even though it was a poor recording right from the start.

 

[clamsterdamm]

Pinky has an Ax to grind with the cassette format.

 

[clamsterdamm]

This is the sort of thing that happens when you’ve been introduced to perfectionism in the digital world. It’s kind of a plague that makes the modern audiophile insufferable to deal with. All they see is specs. It's no longer about listening to music.

 

[TalismanRich]

I was just looking at some of the number for the past couple of years.

Sales of cassettes nearly doubled from 173,000 in 2020 to 343,000 in 2021, according to entertainment data tracker Luminate. That's for all artists. Wow, that's a massive 97% increase. Its also a drop in the bucket. In 1988, cassettes sold 450 million units worth $3.4 BILLION. So units sold is .0007% of what sold 35 years ago. It didn't even register on the RIAA sales data in 2021.

Look at the Audio magazine equipment directory from the mid 80 and you'll find 40 different manufacturers making component grade cassette decks (not including boom boxes, walkman or cheap portable types). Now you have 1 company making a couple of models.

Vinyl surpassed CDs in sales dollars, but not in units sold. Vinyl sold 39.7 million units and CDs sold 46.6 million in 2021. However, a quick look at prices shows that CD run $8 to $13 per unit, vs vinyl records costing between $18 and $50. Target will sell you Hotel California for $9 on CD, but $25 on vinyl. Tom Petty's Greatest hits is $8 on CD but $35 on vinyl. So while units sold are lower, the dollars were higher, $1Billion for vinyl vs $584million for CD.

Digital album downloads dropped from 33 million to 29 million 2020 to 2021. However subscription streaming services have gone up
Spotify had 365 million monthly subscribers in 2021, Pandora had 55 million in 2021, Amazon Music - 55 million, Apple -72 million (2020), I-Heart Radio 275million (2019). Overall in 2020, only 7% of all music revenue came from physical sales, rather than streaming or digital downloads. Streaming is over 80% of all revenue.

You can get information of formats and sales here: RIAA Music Sales Database

What the numbers say is that physical sales have dropped continually for the past 10 years, and paid streaming services have become the primary source of music. I wouldn't call that a resurgence of the cassette format.

 

[famous beagle]

I still love recording to cassette 4-track. I don't get caught up in all the sound comparisons and arguments. It's mainly a personal choice for me that boils down to two major factors:
1. Nostalgia - I started on a 4-track cassette recorder, and that's what instilled in me the love of recording. So it'll always have a place in my heart because of that.
2. Limitations - For some songs - not all, but some - I enjoy working within the limitations of four tracks. Say what you will, but option anxiety is a proven phenomenon, and while it may not affect everyone, it certainly does me. I find that limitless tracks/plugins/etc. stifles my creativity instead of kindle it.

Considering that enjoying what I do is of prime importance to me (it's clearly too late for me to strike it rich with music), those are two perfectly valid reasons for choosing tape.

I do have a digital rig as well, which I use for work, because it's cheap and fast, and time is money when I'm working. But when I want to really enjoy recording - i.e., when I'm recording my own stuff - it's almost always analog.

 

[famous beagle]

What the numbers say is that physical sales have dropped continually for the past 10 years, and paid streaming services have become the primary source of music. I wouldn't call that a resurgence of the cassette format.

Wait, huh? You literally just said that cassette and vinyl increased in the past couple of years (cassettes by nearly 100% last year). How can that be a continual drop for the past 10 years?

 

[Smithers XKR]

I still love recording to cassette 4-track. I don't get caught up in all the sound comparisons and arguments. It's mainly a personal choice for me that boils down to two major factors:
1. Nostalgia - I started on a 4-track cassette recorder, and that's what instilled in me the love of recording. So it'll always have a place in my heart because of that.
2. Limitations - For some songs - not all, but some - I enjoy working within the limitations of four tracks. Say what you will, but option anxiety is a proven phenomenon, and while it may not affect everyone, it certainly does me. I find that limitless tracks/plugins/etc. stifles my creativity instead of kindle it.

Considering that enjoying what I do is of prime importance to me (it's clearly too late for me to strike it rich with music), those are two perfectly valid reasons for choosing tape.

I do have a digital rig as well, which I use for work, because it's cheap and fast, and time is money when I'm working. But when I want to really enjoy recording - i.e., when I'm recording my own stuff - it's almost always analog.

Cool stuff I am trying to learn the DAW I have and its great but still love the Atari ST with Cubase 3 floppy, with my old Yamaha MT8X cassette based format multitracker from the early 90's. I think there is a place for all formats and I still love all my vinyl and old cassette machines. I would never suggest analogue is as good as modern DAW and is a lot more hassle... but as Clam rightly says.... some of the old high end tech with top end cassette based machines can still sound really good.

 

[TalismanRich]

Wait, huh? You literally just said that cassette and vinyl increased in the past couple of years (cassettes by nearly 100% last year). How can that be a continual drop for the past 10 years?

Actually, last year there was a slight uptick in CD and LP sales. Here's the figures for CD, LP and Cassette since 1976. You can see the trends pretty easily.