How important is subject matter in songs ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter grimtraveller
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I never really went to school with Hugh Millity. We rode the train together though {that'll be a song one day !}.
 
DM60 said:
Ya know, a little humility would serve you well. Juuuust sayin'
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Yeah but one guy was "going to correct me" and the other guy says something about the money weird al makes, when we were talking about singing.

I usually don't bite until somebody bites first
 
barry c said:
Yeah but one guy was "going to correct me" and the other guy says something about the money weird al makes, when we were talking about singing.

I usually don't bite until somebody bites first
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Dude, you done nothing but bite since you've been here. I referenced another person's post, you're not the only guy posting on here.

Plus, how do you know if Weird Al can or can't sing. He puts out something that sells and he uses his talents to make money, but have you heard anything outside of that? Probably not.

So probably you really don't know if he can sing or not. Kind of like Steve Martin plays a pretty good banjo, but not in his act.
 
DM60 said:
Dude, you done nothing but bite since you've been here. I referenced another person's post, you're not the only guy posting on here.

Plus, how do you know if Weird Al can or can't sing. He puts out something that sells and he uses his talents to make money, but have you heard anything outside of that? Probably not.

So probably you really don't know if he can sing or not. Kind of like Steve Martin plays a pretty good banjo, but not in his act.
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The idol singers couldnt sing, that was point enough, a point not very hard to grasp was made
 
I think it depends on what you are creating for. Music is my creative outlet for my poetry so it would make no sense if I didn't include lyrics. If you talk about subject matter, I like songs that are based on personal experiences. I don't need to hear about how evil the church is or bush or whatever. Dylan for example and nick cave have personal mythology. You don't need to know the people he's writing about and the song stories don't need to make perfect sense but certain aspects and key moments have to excite the imagination. Like "some candy talking" by Jesus and Mary chain. Some people think it's about drugs, some about a girl, but it's open ended enough to excite the imagination. Or "red right hand" by nick cave, I never met anyone with a red right hand so I can't relate but it fits into my perception if this character nick cave has created and excites my imagination. Either way, the music in both songs are amazing but what makes them classics is they both allow you to personalize them with your imaginative thoughts.
 
Great lyric writing gives a song (or artist) a whole other realm to the music and way to connect. Also, if the music, melody and feeling of the song are all good then why let it down with crap lyrics? (of course thats subjective but I think that the writer at least ought to make his/her own best effort!)
 
Dick Dale and his DelTones weren't just an instrumental band. "Scavenger", "Grudge Match", "King of the Surf Guitar". The Ventures had vocals as well.
 
Lyrics don't have to always mean anything. For example, in 1963 "Surfin Bird" by The Trashmen made it to #4 on the Billboard charts. I remember it well, for those that don't, here is the first verse :

A well a everybody's heard about the bird
b-b-b-bird bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird the brid is the word
a well a bird bird bird well the bird is the word
a well a bird bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird well the brid is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird brid b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird well the brid is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a don't you know about the bird
well everybody knows that the bird is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a...
 
I always thought the lyrics to "Surfin Bird" DID mean something!
Don't they mean . . . . . .. .

b-b-b-bird bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird the brid is the word
a well a bird bird bird well the bird is the word
a well a bird bird bird b-bird's the word
 
There's a steep curve between Surfin Bird and Tom Sawyer or Spirit of the Radio. Neil Peart writes very deep to an audience that wants to hear a deep conversation in their music. Dixie Dreggs writes non-message, period to people who want to hear musicianship. But even Grateful Dead had subject matter in their songs, even if it's as simple as Touch of Grey. Sometimes I believe we just miss the subject matter (Pink Floyd). Sometimes the message is meant for a certain group of people.

But the music is what's important. Beethoven's 5th has a hook that is undeniable, but most people have never listened to the entire composition. Even in classical there are huge differences in style between Tchaikovsky and Mozart, Debussy and Liszt. Same thing in modern music. Write what you feel and if you feel it will have a market, you try to market it.

Subject matter or not, if you write something worth listening too, people will listen.
 
Illsidgus said:
Lyrics don't have to always mean anything. For example, in 1963 "Surfin Bird" by The Trashmen made it to #4 on the Billboard charts. I remember it well, for those that don't, here is the first verse :

A well a everybody's heard about the bird
b-b-b-bird bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird the brid is the word
a well a bird bird bird well the bird is the word
a well a bird bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird well the brid is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird brid b-bird's the word
a well a bird bird bird well the brid is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a don't you know about the bird
well everybody knows that the bird is the word
a well a bird bird b-bird's the word
a well a...
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Exactly. I always use Surfin Bird as an example against the stuffy snob meaningful lyrics people. There's always a big handful of internet experts that swear songwriting has to be this complex introspective meaningful display of musical poetry that speaks to and moves people, and not a one of them has ever written anything as timeless as Surfin Bird.
 
barry c said:
That's funny. Even if my songs are the worst of all time, my idea that songs can be well crafted and badly crafted stand.

there is also objectivity, not just subjectivity. When those bad IDOL singers go on in the beginning of the show, they are so god awful. EVERYBODY knows it, they ar eput on the show for laughs.

Why is it that everybody knows they suck? Because they they dont hit pitch, they have no control, they sound like dying cows, it doesnt take a genius to figure it out.

Nobody thinks Weird AL is a great singer, he will never be thought of a s a great singer, just a funny guy.

The same as you can tell if an idol singer is god awful. a skilled songwriter can tell the same thing by listening to bad songs.
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If a bad singer sings Like a Rolling Stone, does that make it a bad song?
 
Greg_L said:
Exactly. I always use Surfin Bird as an example against the stuffy snob meaningful lyrics people. There's always a big handful of internet experts that swear songwriting has to be this complex introspective meaningful display of musical poetry that speaks to and moves people, and not a one of them has ever written anything as timeless as Surfin Bird.
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This is why, while I use a structure, this snob mentality has proven historically, in many walks of life to be flawed. Just like snobs once said the world was flat, the sun rotates around the earth.

Saying one way only is the way to create art is against art itself. That has been mine and I guess many others argument against certain parties on this thread.
 
Greg_L said:
There's always a big handful of internet experts that swear songwriting has to be this complex introspective meaningful display of musical poetry that speaks to and moves people
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Well, that's one side of it. To deny that that element exists is the height of ignorance in the face of such overwhelming evidence, often from songwriters themselves. The very fact that there is such a mountain of stuff out there in which songwriters discuss their work, stretching back close to 50 years demonstrates that for tons of people, "songwriting often is this complex introspective meaningful display of musical poetry that speaks to and moves people." Even Little Richard, Chuck Berry and BB King talk about their work sometimes in those terms.
But it is equally the height of ignorance to dismiss the other side and state that there is only one set of criteria to which well crafted songs can fit. Sometimes writers just want to say nothing meaningful and deep, their "stories" or verses may not even match up by verse 3 or whatever. But they are aligned to some super music, they melodically fit brilliantly and people are still singing those songs 50 and 60 years later. To say those are not good songs is, in my opinion, ricco~doodleous. It runs both ways.
You don't have to like a song to have the opinion that it is good.
It's also daft when the statement "just because it's popular doesn't make it good" is paraded. I've done it myself, for years. But you know what ? It does make it good. I hate to admit it, it sticks in my craw to admit it, but to those multitudes that dig it, it's good.

barry c said:
Even if my songs are the worst of all time, my idea that songs can be well crafted and badly crafted stand.
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And you'd be right. In your mind. Many agree with you. I still stand by my assertion that the multitracking age has shifted the goalposts in regard to what constitutes good songwriting. A lot of the elements that go into a finished recording are simply not evident at the songwriting stage and by necessity cause one to alter one's judgement.
barry c said:
there is also objectivity, not just subjectivity. When those bad IDOL singers go on in the beginning of the show, they are so god awful. EVERYBODY knows it, they are put on the show for laughs.

Why is it that everybody knows they suck? Because they they don't hit pitch, they have no control, they sound like dying cows, it doesnt take a genius to figure it out.
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No, it doesn't, but I think being able to gauge whether someone can sing and judging the writing of songs are two very different things. There are lots of singers whose voices I cannot stand. But I'd have to concede they can sing. There have been many borderline singers that folk will mention like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger, John Lydon et al, but for all their roughness and perhaps sometime pitchiness, you can recognize the supposed melody of the songs they sing. With those Pop Idol "singers" you merntion, you can't. And that's pretty easy to recognize. If someone is trying to sing G C D E, it's undeniable if they don't. So subjectivity is pretty irrelevant there because it's relatively measurable.
Songwriting quality is not. It is driven by one's opinion and what one finds acceptable and often what one has been taught which one has never moved away from.
I think many people have a real problem, understandably, with the notion of the paradox. How can both sides of the debate be right ?
Well, they can. If it's only a "Man up and pick a side" thing, well, goodnight and have fun.
 
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