How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

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Grotius said:
Wow, I've just spent three hours reading this thread; Harvey, this is a single best thing I've read on microphones anywhere. Thank you so much for educating me. I'm sort of nervous posting in this famous thread because I'm a relative newbie, but what the heck; I have three questions:

1. I noticed that Harvey recommended a (matched pair?) of small diaphragm omni or cardioid condensers for recording classical grand piano, which is my main interest. Noise and dynamic range are obviously important to me. My main question is about the relative importance of various specifications, especially self-noise and SPL. Is low self-noise more important than high maximum SPL? (FYI, I have a new 7-foot Bluthner in my living room, and my tastes lean toward "quieter" classical music like Chopin and Debussy, though I do enjoy playing the occasional Beethoven and Rachmaninoff.)

Dynamic range isn's as much of a problem as self noise when it comes to recording classical piano.

2. I'm also curious whether Harvey (or anyone else) has a preference among specific microphones for this application. I've heard various recommendations, including the KM184, KM183, TLM103, Rode NT2, AT 4033, AT822, ATM25, ATM87R, Oktava MC012s, and MXL 2003. Or, er, the DPA 4011, if one can afford it (which I can't). Also, in the low-self-noise department, does the TLM103 take the crown?

The ATM25 should be removed from your list. The Neumanns are pretty standard for miking piano, but they have a tendency to be a little bright. A good pair of Soundroom MC012s or even the Marshall MXL 603S might work for you. All of the mics you list are pretty good for piano, but finding the best matchup for your piano and playing style will take some work.

3. Finally, I gather that a single stereo pair is enough? Too many phase problems if one tries 4 mikes, e.g. to close-mike and distance-mike at the same time?

A stereo pair will usually do the job, although adding an extra mic for the room is often a nice way to get real ambience.

Thanks, Harvey, for a great thread!
Click to expand...
Glad you found it of some use.
 
Grotius said:
Also, in the low-self-noise department, does the TLM103 take the crown?
Click to expand...
the most silent mic I came across until now, was the Røde NT1000, with a specified self-noise of 6dB SPL (A-weighted).
That's pretty damn silent if you ask me!
 
Grotius said:
2. I'm also curious whether Harvey (or anyone else) has a preference among specific microphones for this application. I've heard various recommendations, including the KM184, KM183, TLM103, Rode NT2, AT 4033, AT822, ATM25, ATM87R, Oktava MC012s, and MXL 2003. Or, er, the DPA 4011, if one can afford it (which I can't). Also, in the low-self-noise department, does the TLM103 take the crown?
Click to expand...

The best sound I've ever gotten on my grand (1937 Baldwin 6'3") came from an Earthworks omni, but that was borrowed and I can't afford the price tag. I get good results with a pair of MXL 603's in the x/y configuration, although you'll have to do a lot of testing to figure out what kind of sound you're after. You'll get a very powerful sound if you go close to the strings, but you'll also hear the mechanism of the action and the "whoosh" of the dampers every time you pedal when you do this. Each placement scheme gives a slightly different color, and only your ears can tell you what kind of sound suits your taste.

Two things to be careful of: a bright piano (or an old one with old hammers) brings all of the imperfections of the instrument to the forefront of the recording, and you can hear some wolf-tones (overtones, etc.) on the playback that you never even knew existed. Also, if your action hasn't been regulated and your strings leveled, you might be in for some strange surprises as the mics are able to pick up a level of detail that your ears don't usually catch from further away.

Good luck.
 
Harvey: Many thanks for the helpful feedback and suggestions.

Speeddemon: Wow, that's quite a self-noise spec on that Rode. The TLM103's spec is 7dB SPL (A-weighted), I think. Can one hear the difference between that level of self noise, and, say, 24dB SPL (A-weighted)? Between 35dB (my cheap mic's spec) and 24?

ChrisF: thanks for your input. My piano is brand new, so the hammers are new too; it doesn't sound too bright (yet). Mostly, it needs its first post-delivery tuning. When recording (with a cheap Sony mic), what bothers me most is my playing! The rubato that sounds so wonderful to me while I'm playing sounds schmaltzy on tape. Some pieces sound rushed; some sound too slow. My little microphone picks up every little technical deficiency in my fingers. Recording is a great practice tool: there's nowhere to hide.

Grotius.
 
When recording (with a cheap Sony mic), what bothers me most is my playing! The rubato that sounds so wonderful to me while I'm playing sounds schmaltzy on tape. Some pieces sound rushed; some sound too slow. My little microphone picks up every little technical deficiency in my fingers. Recording is a great practice tool: there's nowhere
to hide.
Click to expand...

I suggest you get yourself a glass of some good cabernet ( or whatever you like ) and listen to some Glenn Gould.

Don't be so critical of yourself. Feel is everything.;)
 
Harvey were you trying to do this:
<img src="http://www.itrstudio.com/tlm103fq.gif">



dang didn't work...oh well
 
DanielJohn said:
Harvey were you trying to do this:
<img src="http://www.itrstudio.com/tlm103fq.gif">



dang didn't work...oh well
Click to expand...

The tags have to be closed with these [ ] instead of these < >
I cant type it out here because it will show up as an X.put this before your url
.........see it showed up as an X.lol...... put this at the beginning of the url
tlm103fq.gif


and put this at the end of the url [/img]

you can click the quote tab on my message and look at the source code to see how it's done.
 
The image codes and vB codes were not turned on when I started this thread. They were turned on later.
 
i've just finished my version of this thread in doc and PDF format and put it on http://www.kset.org/music/pub/

I also put some information about Harvey Gerst, from his site, if that's OK with you mr. Harvey...

Also I woud like to translate this hole thread in Croatian language (that woud be third translation, after Swedis and Romanian publication, ... )

...I wish to thank for this great tread...

I'm working like sound man in Student Club KSET, in Zagreb (Croatia), (KSET stands for Club of Students of Electrotechnical faculty in University of Zagreb ), so i woud like to ask how mic placement for doing live sound differs from mic tech for recording, or wich techniques for studio recording can we use for live

Regards, Goran
 
Thanks, Goran!

I just looked at some of the PDF briefly but it looks great!

Thanks for sharing that with us!:)
 
well, let sey it's beta version, i will try hard to make it easy to navigate through...
 
NEWBIES TAKE NOTE!!!!!!!!

Gotta bump this up...As a newbie, speaking to other newbies...

YOU MUST READ THIS THREAD BEFORE POSTING!!!!!!

It will answer 85% of the questions you have. Print it, read it, use it as a reference source. Put it in a 3 ring binder by your DAW or mixer. Tell your friends to read it. Tell the band to read it. When you're done reading it, read it again! Take my word for it-it's worth the time invested.

You can't buy a book like this one...
 
Just what I needed!

Just stumbled on this thread after "resurecting" my studio from a 3 year lull - moving from a lowly 4 track cassette setup to a DAW with some decent outboard and a few cheap (but not bad) mics. The information I've already absorbed is already being put to good use. Simply amazing.

Thank you Harvey Gerst!!!
 
hyped D

Harvey,

This thread is awesome. I haven't taken notes like this ever, even in college.

In my heavy electric guitar recording, I get a lot of hum or build-up on certain frequencies between 100 and 180 Hz. I'm not sure if this is the same as "hyped D" I read about before or if it's caused by AC hum or something else. I'm using a Marshall amp and cab recording with a SM57 onto a Yamaha AW4416. If there is a way for me to get rid of these problems that you may know of, please let me know.

Oh, yeah. And what is "hyped D"?

Thank you,

Jason
 
what kind of guitar are you using? it may be the pickups, single coil pickups tend to hum. You may have bad circutry in the
guitar(s)

Also it could be the cables if you have cheap cables they will make noise.

There are pedals i think there called hum eliminators or something like that that are supposed to reduce hum.
 
I use an Ibanez AX120 with a Gibson 500T in the bridge and the original AX1 pickup in the neck. The instrument and mic cables are not the best, but I don't think they're horrible. That could be it. Maybe the inst and mic cables are too close to the power cables. Could that be it? A hum eliminator or whatever would probably be a good idea, though.

Thanks.
 
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