How do you know what notes are ok to sing over a riff?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RockNSoul
  • Start date Start date
It doesn't matter. Don't think...Feel.. Your worst enemy is intillectual thought when you write...leave that for the mix, and arangements.. just do whatever comes naturaly to you, even if it's dissonant..it will be a heartfelt dissonance...which wins over half assed theoretical "perfection".

I agree that critical or theoretical analysis (what you call intellectual thought) are best kept away from the writing process. But, always limiting yourself to what comes naturally is a great way to stifle growth. Also, I might be reading this wrong, but that statement about dissonance implies that understanding music theory will somehow limit you from using dissonance, which is simply not true.

YOu could have all the notes the same even.. ever hear of the one note samba? Granted he lied and there are more than one note overall.. but it's mostly the same note being repeated over and over in a certain rhythm (depending on the arrangement) Just do whatever you feel and let the people who tell you it's "wrong" go suck on their own infant dicks. Songwriting is an expression of what's within, not an academic exersize.

I don't really think his question was about what is 'right and wrong,' so much as a request for help proceeding.

The best song you ever write will the the one that touches people emotionally (regardless of what the emotion is). In order to do that, you need to feel with all your heart every note you sing. So just feel what you do, and do what you feel, and fuck everyone else.

Great advice.

Btw..the best songwriters are usually not the best musicians, and the best music theorists are usually just college music theory teachers.

Again, misleading. While some theorists might limit themselves to academic work on theory, there are a great many composers that use 'theory' in their compositional methods. And they assuredly felt every note they composed.
--------
General conversation:

For me, learning music fundamentals has expedited my creative processes; transcribing is easier (both from recordings and ideas I hear mentally), I occasionally begin by writing a riff on paper, forcing me to work outside of the patterns my fingers are used to. These riffs NEVER stay in the same form for long, but it gets me started with ideas I wouldn't have found just playing around.

When you're writing, you need to remember that no one will know, ask, or care how you wrote the song. They'll only care how the final product sounds. If trying particular notes over a chord works for you, and you eventually find something you like the sound of and feel, deep down, then that's the right method. If just strumming and singing over it is the way, then thats the way. But dismissing methods on the basis of "theory killing soul," is just ignorant.

Chase, if you're always following the chord tones and would like to branch out, you might want to try playing the chords while intentionally singing other notes. Sing a note outside the chord, sustain that note, play the chord. Or, slow the progression down and improvise a new melody over the chords. Just force yourself to sing different notes. These ideas might help, might not, but will hopefully get you out of the rut of sticking to chord tones. Not that singing chord tones is bad, but if you'd like to avoid it, thats one way.

I would take TerraMortin's advice and improvise over that progression. If you wanted, you could try singing scale tones from each chord pair's key (akin to improvisational methods). Or, you could stick to notes in both keys. Just remember not to feel limited by these methods, and treat them only as starting points.
 
If the dude knew theory, he wouldn't needed to ask which notes to sing over his guitar parts.
 
Check out the attached article. I haven't read it in a long time (probably about time I do), and I think it's more about harmony rather than creating your main melody, but it might give you some ideas...

Edit: jsut perused it a bit. I guess this article would only be so helpful if you don't have a lead vocal to begin with. But I still think it's a good read, even if it doesn't help the OP specifically with his prob.
 

Attachments

I couldn't disagree more. Head over to the mp3 clinic. Lots of really passionate tone deaf users. Passion is good, but only part of the equation.

And there's no such thing as "half-assed perfection". If it's perfect, it's not half-assed, regardless of what it is.

some people simply can't write music. What I'm saying is though, if it's heartfelt...even if it's not so great, at least it's an expression, not what ammounts to a cold academic experiment. The truth about songwriting, is it just isn't for everyone. It's much harder to be a good songwriter than a good musician.

I said technical perfection (which is never in reality actually perfection).
 
I agree that critical or theoretical analysis (what you call intellectual thought) are best kept away from the writing process. But, always limiting yourself to what comes naturally is a great way to stifle growth. Also, I might be reading this wrong, but that statement about dissonance implies that understanding music theory will somehow limit you from using dissonance, which is simply not true.



I don't really think his question was about what is 'right and wrong,' so much as a request for help proceeding.



Great advice.



Again, misleading. While some theorists might limit themselves to academic work on theory, there are a great many composers that use 'theory' in their compositional methods. And they assuredly felt every note they composed.
--------
General conversation:

For me, learning music fundamentals has expedited my creative processes; transcribing is easier (both from recordings and ideas I hear mentally), I occasionally begin by writing a riff on paper, forcing me to work outside of the patterns my fingers are used to. These riffs NEVER stay in the same form for long, but it gets me started with ideas I wouldn't have found just playing around.

When you're writing, you need to remember that no one will know, ask, or care how you wrote the song. They'll only care how the final product sounds. If trying particular notes over a chord works for you, and you eventually find something you like the sound of and feel, deep down, then that's the right method. If just strumming and singing over it is the way, then thats the way. But dismissing methods on the basis of "theory killing soul," is just ignorant.

Chase, if you're always following the chord tones and would like to branch out, you might want to try playing the chords while intentionally singing other notes. Sing a note outside the chord, sustain that note, play the chord. Or, slow the progression down and improvise a new melody over the chords. Just force yourself to sing different notes. These ideas might help, might not, but will hopefully get you out of the rut of sticking to chord tones. Not that singing chord tones is bad, but if you'd like to avoid it, thats one way.

I would take TerraMortin's advice and improvise over that progression. If you wanted, you could try singing scale tones from each chord pair's key (akin to improvisational methods). Or, you could stick to notes in both keys. Just remember not to feel limited by these methods, and treat them only as starting points.

Music theory isn't bad at all. I know a bit of music theory...nothing really advanced, but enough to hold a general conversation about it. What I was getting at, is so many people are like...so what's the magic combination to make my song great. What notes am I supposed to use, or what is the "right" thing to put over this chord progression. They think music theory alone will catapult them into being the best songwriter out there. Music theory will only help you understand why the thing you just wrote sounds good.

What I was saying with the notion of doing what comes naturally.. you can always spend time analyzing what you allready wrote and learning from that..and then what comes naturally will grow. Definately analyze, grow, etc.. but it's really helped me to seperate my "writing" process with the rest... I have to go into different modes, otherwise I'll just get self concious, and start worrying about how this sounds stupid, that sounds too basic to be taken seriously, or this bit in the mix is bugging me or whatever. It helps to just sit down and clear your mind and just mindlessly plunk away at whatever comes through... btw.. with anything, the more experience you get doing that particular skill the better results you'll have from what comes naturally to you.

It certainly isn't going to limit understanding of dissonance.. in fact it will give you some more of a pallete of different kinds of dissonance... It's just that most obsessed music theorists run screaming from the first sign of dissonance (at least most that I've met). Oh no, that's unpleasant. I think that it's because they're ususally mathematical types who are obsessed with theoretical perfection. I always seperate the process even further of writing music vs. writing songs. A song is the most basic form, something that really could be moulded and shaped into anything... for me, I always write the song...and then the brain kicks in to mould it into a whole piece of music. Often, with me a song is born from a simple melody, maybe paired with a phrase or two... maybe some cool synth hook.

But yeah, good aditional advice to him, anyway. I just want to encourage any songwriter that I meet to not reach out to theory as the holy grail and just do what comes naturally, and what is meaningful to them. You can write a stupid catchy piece of shit that gets lots of radio play because all the teenagers are told to like it for a couple of weeks (those aren't songs...they're jingles, advertising a lifestyle they want people to embrace for further profits), or you can write a great song that people will actually care about, even when they are old and grey, as a song that touched them in some way.
 
What I'm saying is though, if it's heartfelt...even if it's not so great, at least it's an expression, not what ammounts to a cold academic experiment.

..and what I'm saying is, if you know theory and have a passion for music, it makes songwriting a whole lot easier, and more times than not, better.

This guy is reaaal passionate!
 
and what i find amazing is how often the theoretical correct and the impassioned end up being the same...


IMO... theory is misunderstood by those that rail against it... it doesnt tell you what to play as much as it's like doing vocabulary if you're learning say french... for the non theory types i would ask... do you want to speak french or merely sound french to those that dont speak it????

it also gives us a basis for communication.... if i walk into a jam session i can call a I - IV - V in G and everyone would know what i mean... that's theory... and when i get some guys that are more advanced and ask for I-III-IV-II-V-I some will before playing it realize that it sounds kinda like "georgia"....
 
Perfect example of dissonance that went gold....."What I Am" by Natalie Merchant. I heard it and realized she was singing a pent blues scale a fifth away from the tonality or something like that.

"Yuck! She's in the wrong key!

The rest is hist-o ree.

No freaking theory jock messed with what she was hearing. It was new and different...and wrong.....and very remunerative!!

Hear the music inside. Lots of good advice on the thread.
 
Wow thanks for all th great ideas!
I'll reply to them in order.....

jeffmaher, Yes I hear music in my head, thats nothing I've heard on the radio. Sometimes its hard to play on guitar or keys...but right now I'm just trying to write vocal melodies over older riffs I've had for awhile. I agree breaking rules is good, music is way too safe these days. So what step now?

azraelswings, I know I need to sit down and spend more time just singing a bunch of notes over my riffs.
I've heard a little before about melodic tension but I guess I forgot most of what I knew....:)

danny.guitar, I would just leave my guitar tuner on or play it and then sing it.

TerraMortim, I really like what you had to say. I think I'll print it and post it on my wall;p.....I know I think waaaaay too much....I need to just let it flow.

ez_willis, I know what you mean about some people having no "ear" for music but I have a pretty good one so at this point I might be ok... I was mainly wondering others approach to song writing.

azraelswings, Wow thanks alot for all of your input I'll put your ideas to use and see what happens.

ez_willis, I know a little theory, I was more wondering what others used for song writing and if it was ok to sing any note from the scale or if that was a big no no, maybe they thought its best to use chord tones etc.....

andyhix, Thanks for the article I just reformatted my comp and it says I need to install something in order to see this file....I'll do that in a few.

TerraMortim, Thanks for reaching out, I agree that theory is not "the holy grail"....most of the stuff I create sounds good to me but isn't in a real key....or I guess its in alot of keys, but chord progressions in alot of keys seems to make some people say its not "correct"....but Im sick of music being so structured....everything is sounding the same and I want to get away from that.....within reason....

ez_willis, William hung has passion but not a good ear....atleast I have a good ear.;p bahahaha

dementedchord, Theory is not misunderstood by me its just I don't want my songs to sound like a chord progression you've heard a ton since pop music of the 50's....but jamming with others and having it sound good has its value as well:)

jeffmaher, I havn't heard that song but I'm glad she went gold on something that is "wrong". I'm sure some will think that about my stuff...but atleast its nothing you've likely heard before....


Thank you for all of your ideas and input, its appreciated massively and will be put to good use.
-Chase
 
..and what I'm saying is, if you know theory and have a passion for music, it makes songwriting a whole lot easier, and more times than not, better.

This guy is reaaal passionate!

sogwriting and music writing are two different processes. ;) Just think about that concept for a little bit...it's a really interesting to approach it that way. I NEVER use music theory when writing a song.. however when it starts to branch into the music writing process..music theory is very helpful in some ways (although hardly nessisary by any stretch of the imagination)
 
Wow thanks for all th great ideas!
I'll reply to them in order.....

jeffmaher, Yes I hear music in my head, thats nothing I've heard on the radio. Sometimes its hard to play on guitar or keys...but right now I'm just trying to write vocal melodies over older riffs I've had for awhile. I agree breaking rules is good, music is way too safe these days. So what step now?

azraelswings, I know I need to sit down and spend more time just singing a bunch of notes over my riffs.
I've heard a little before about melodic tension but I guess I forgot most of what I knew....:)

danny.guitar, I would just leave my guitar tuner on or play it and then sing it.

TerraMortim, I really like what you had to say. I think I'll print it and post it on my wall;p.....I know I think waaaaay too much....I need to just let it flow.

ez_willis, I know what you mean about some people having no "ear" for music but I have a pretty good one so at this point I might be ok... I was mainly wondering others approach to song writing.

azraelswings, Wow thanks alot for all of your input I'll put your ideas to use and see what happens.

ez_willis, I know a little theory, I was more wondering what others used for song writing and if it was ok to sing any note from the scale or if that was a big no no, maybe they thought its best to use chord tones etc.....

andyhix, Thanks for the article I just reformatted my comp and it says I need to install something in order to see this file....I'll do that in a few.

TerraMortim, Thanks for reaching out, I agree that theory is not "the holy grail"....most of the stuff I create sounds good to me but isn't in a real key....or I guess its in alot of keys, but chord progressions in alot of keys seems to make some people say its not "correct"....but Im sick of music being so structured....everything is sounding the same and I want to get away from that.....within reason....

ez_willis, William hung has passion but not a good ear....atleast I have a good ear.;p bahahaha

dementedchord, Theory is not misunderstood by me its just I don't want my songs to sound like a chord progression you've heard a ton since pop music of the 50's....but jamming with others and having it sound good has its value as well:)

jeffmaher, I havn't heard that song but I'm glad she went gold on something that is "wrong". I'm sure some will think that about my stuff...but atleast its nothing you've likely heard before....


Thank you for all of your ideas and input, its appreciated massively and will be put to good use.
-Chase

I'm glad you enjoyed my advice. Just have fun with songwriting..let it clense you and you never know how much it might do the same for other people. Just feel it and it will eventually come to some extent..some people have stronger natural songwriting abilities than others, but it can only help the more practice you have in losing yourself in music (the best experience I could imagine)
 
sogwriting and music writing are two different processes. ;) Just think about that concept for a little bit...

Okay, I thought about it for a little bit. This is what I came up with:

A large percentage of a song is made up of music, so writing a song without writing music is nearly impossible.

Also, music is not a mathematical equation, but when it comes to knowing what note to sing over which chord, it helps tremendously if you know your options.
 
What step now?

Get a pocket recorder, and carry it with you at all times.

Keep self-primiing: that is, set your subconscious mind to listen for the loops and snips that play randomly in your head...to set off an alarm that the jukebox is playing....something you might otherwise miss....or dismiss...if you're not paying attention.

When you zone in on the soundtrack....let it play its loop...and listen. Grab the melody and sing it into the recorder. You have a three-minute window in which to grab it. Otherwise , it'll be gone forever.

When you get your instrument in your lap, play the tape. Iy should act as a prompt, and automatically snap you back to what you were hearing.

Learn to play what you were hearing. Doesn't have to be long...part of a verse...a hook....a bridge...a groove. Don't worry about too simple. Imagine a four bar snip of any really good tune. Is it earth-shaking? Prolly not: it's the totality of the work that makes it great.

Anyway...learn that bit. I mean really nail it. Then magic happens: the next part will come to you. Then the next. You'll be allowing your subconscious jukebox to work....more like ordering it to proceed. It can't resist finishing the sentences you've learned. You are not a 'writer'; rather, a 'transcriber'.

Your brain is programmed to find melody....play music. You have to believe it's there. Train youself to pay attention. Have faith that the little snip is only a tiny part of a nice tune...the rest of which will reveal itself when you learn to play the snip. The part you hear is like the head of a worm: you grab it real fast, and pull gently. You know the rest is attached, and forthcoming. If you don't grab the head fast, and grip it firmly (learn to play the snip] the worm disappears. Bye bye.

Once you get the tune in its entire...then use your sharp pencils to tweak where you find it appropriate and pleasing...arrange the parts; but your mind is the superior composer...learn to trust its version of things.

The above might not be a process that'll work for you. I didn't discover it: it was passed to me...I pass it to anyone who might ask.

Your music is yours. That it sounds like nothing you ever heard is natural...and good!

Believe. Grab those loops. Pull the worms out of the holes. Forget what note on what chord, blahblah. There's a place for that. Not this place.

Once you wear the path to the internal jukebox, you can develop the ability to put in an order, and have it produce a product that fits your desires. It's a wonderful thing. Good hunting!
 
"A large percentage of a song is made up of music, so writing a song without writing music is nearly impossible.

Also, music is not a mathematical equation, but when it comes to knowing what note to sing over which chord, it helps tremendously if you know your options."

Some of the most poignant, beautiful music I've clapped ears on has been conjured by gifted composers who play what they hear...and don't know a whole lot about where to find a Bb on their instrument. A variety of good tools is , well, good! But not essential to making music. Some very interesting homes are built by dreamers who can't use a carpenter's square to deftly cut a rafter....they fit by trial and error. The result is the same....just not as quick!
 
Some of the most poignant, beautiful music I've clapped ears on has been conjured by gifted composers who play what they hear...and don't know a whole lot about where to find a Bb on their instrument.

No shit, huh? How'd they tune up their instruments or know how to form a chord?
 
No shit, huh? How'd they tune up their instruments or know how to form a chord?

Nevermind. You guys are right. There is no sense in learning any part of which notes work together or why. Or how you know what notes are okay to sing over a riff.

To the original poster: To answer your original question, you don't, but it doesn't matter anyways as long as it has passion and is fun.

Out.:cool:
 
If you gotta ask the question, you won't understand the answer.
It's a left brain/right brain kind of thing. One side of the brain can analyze and make lists of notes while the other side of the brain can just JAM. One side or the other will dominate narmally. Cross functioning can be developed but not taught or learned. Just developed. Some folks utterly lack the ability to jam, though they might be competent sight readers.


chazba
 
curiously enough there is some validity to the idea of songs verses music from a historical perspective.... orginally songs as practiced by the ancient greeks had no music nor did the psalms...
 
curiously enough there is some validity to the idea of songs verses music from a historical perspective.... orginally songs as practiced by the ancient greeks had no music nor did the psalms...

Well, now they do :D

Its called music theory, and you should know the basics if you want to understand what-goes-over-what. Then from there you can experiment with intervals and see what rubs you the right way - unfortunately, beyond knowing what notes there are in the key the song is you are writing/playing, there's no set of hard n fast rules to dictate "Well, if I play the 9th over the E major it will sound melancholy" - there are some that give those standard emotions, but you will have to experiment.

Also, start to analyze a lot of the music YOU enjoy. It will show you some interesting musical devices you may not have known about before :)
 
Wow guys yall really gave me alot of great ideas! Your time spent posting a reply won't be for no reason. I'm really getting my song writing going!

Thank you to everyone who helped me on my quest!
-Chase
 
Back
Top