How do you know what notes are ok to sing over a riff?

R

RockNSoul

New member
First let me say I know nothing about writing vocal melodies or hooks, but REALLY want to learn! So please help in anyway you feel you can:)

Lets say I'm playin a simple 2 chord chorus in the key of A with the notes B,F#,A,D,F#,C# for the first chord(Bm9th) and F#,C#,E,A,C#,G#, for the second chord(F#m9th).

How do I know what notes are ok to sing over each chord? Can I sing any note in the chord or any note in the key of A or can I sing any note from either chord over both? Can I take an octave above or below any note in this riff or what? Is it best to sing the root note or can I take a 3rd or 5th above or below?

As you can see I am really confused. So if you know the answers or know of a website or book that can help me, please let me know.

Thank you,
-Chase
 
Honestly, the right notes should come to you when trying to sing over it.

To find out what notes are available in a given key, you first need to know what key it is based off of the chord progression.

Bm and F#m are in the key of A minor if I'm not mistaken (someone will probably correct me/shoot me down if I am). I don't know shit about music theory, just what I know from trying to play lead over a bunch of chord progressions for so long.

To get the notes in a key, you need to use a scale formula (this is the only thing I remember from my theory book). For example, to get the notes that you can use in a major key, the formula is W W H W W W H

That stands for:
Whole step
Whole step
Half step
Whole step
Whole Step
Whole Step
Half step

For the key of C, that would be:

C D E F G A B C

For the key of G, it would be:

G A B C D E F# G

Where a whole step is of course, one whole tone apart (C to D, G to A, etc). One half step being one half-tone apart (C to C#, D to D#, etc).

I hope this makes sense. :confused:
 
I do what feels right...no formulas here. Some tunes can have alot of vocals crammed over the chords, others sound better sparse...It either works, or it doesn't. All experimentation...:D
 
Whatever sounds good... literally.

Trying to overexamine the "right" way or the "mathematical" way to do things tends to drain it of all emotionality, or true musicality (as something that is an emotional medium)
 
Alrighty,

Thanks for the replys yall!

I have issues with it sounding like I'm singing the same chord that I'm playing on guitar....and I want to get past that...maybe if I recorded it and wasn't playing it at the time.....maybe that would help?.....
Any ideas?

Another thing, I have some riffs where the first 2 chords are in 1 key and the next 2 are in another key....but it would all be part of the same progression. I guess I'll just try to use some of the notes in those chords and if that doesn't work...I don't know.....

Thanks again,
-Chase
 
Hi Chase,

I second all that was said about feeling it and not thinking it. However, creativity being the challenge that it can sometimes be, a little musical knowledge about why things sound the way they do can be helpful in the creativity process.

http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Music-Theory-Book-Understanding/dp/1593376529/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1461366-9182442?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192417585&sr=8-1

In the above (which I use) or similar book, examining and applying different "modes" will probably be of interest to you relating to your "which notes" question.

Tom
 
How do you plan on singing those notes? Do you have perfect pitch or are you going to hold a guitar tuner up while singing to see what notes you can sing? :confused:

To be honest, when playing something on guitar I can already hear in my head what notes would sound right over the chords and what ones wouldn't. And I can't sing for shit.

If you're trying to play an instrument and sing at the same time, it's normal to sing whatever chord you're playing, that's just something you have to overcome with practice...being able to play/sing 2 different things at the same time.

So record a guitar track. Then while listening to that, record the vocal track.

Then, practice recording both guitar and vocals at the same time, using those other 2 tracks as a "play-a-long"...track.
 
Ricky Rooksby has a whole range of books on writing and arranging, with an empahsis on the guitar composer - this one on riffs is great - not only will it give you a good idea for riffs but it teaches the accompaniment options you have once you start a riff

http://www.amazon.com/Riffs-Create-...2399842?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192467612&sr=1-9

Another handy one is Dave Hill Licktionary - he offers short phrases in styles and modes that are great to play around with and create riffs - one man's lick is another man's riff

http://shop.vh1.com/The-Guitar-Lick...VVproductId2065224VVcatId424299VVviewprod.htm

HTH
Burt
 
I take a scientific approach to this.

I start singing, and keep changing it until I find the version that sounds least crap.

It never fails :)
 
in order to be able to create vocal melodies, one has to have a melodic sense. some people get it by listening to, and singing other peoples songs for a while, and others take singing lessons. i learned it when i learned guitar though it took a while of bad singing to figure it out with my voice as opposed to my guitar. in order to develop my melodic sense, i had to learn phrasing.

phrasing is like speaking music in a way. i didn't take lessons, but i learned one method of phrasing from a friend who was taking lessons. i learned the call and answer kind of phrasing found in blues. call and answer is basically this: take a short melodic statement, and then repeating it, and embellishing upon it, creating the "answer". there are several methods of phrasing, depending on what style of music you're talking about, but i only really know the one, i just fake it the rest of the time lol.

anyway, i suggest you look it up or find a book that teaches it because that's the main way of creating a melodic sense. there are other things that can help, like understanding the scale you're in, and knowing what notes make up the chord you're currently singing over, but they only add to the concept of phrasing, they don't help you develop one.

good luck
 
Wow yall rock!

I have heard about the answer call thing in blues. Its nothing I know alot about but I will read up on that for sure. Also I do have a book of scales and modes but I guess I need to take time to figure out what mode I need to use.

I think most of the time I hear a note that could be sung and it sounds good but I think it sounds too run of the mill for me. I really enjoy weird melodies over music....like Scott Weiland his vocal melodies are amazing!

I guess I just need to spend ALOT of time focusing on this stuff....A.D.D. Rocks! lol...

Thans a ton!
-ChaseR
 
When you compose, are you trying to play what you hear in your head? Or are you trying to assemble melody mathematically?

Honest...you gotta hear things, then make them happen in reality. The things you hear may break rules. That's good.

Composing isn't putting a puzzle together. It's seeing a landscape in your mind first, then drawing a picture that best represents what your mind saw.

Theory and skill on an instrument are just sharp pencils.

If you can't hear music, then you gotta find the mental jukebox and listen to it. Those are your songs...your music: your personal, unique gift. It's there...you just can't hear it.

So tell me...have you ever heard any music playing in your head....a couple bars? It may sound like nothing...but it's a part of a much larger work...already written in a deep part of your head....complete. I might be able to help you get hold of those gifts. You didn't write them...you won't write them: you were born with your personal soundtrack.

Let's get your mind right. First, answer the question: a bar or two...playing loop-wise, even?

I
 
While I agree that feeling is everything, I think that to use that blanket statement to answer this question is a bit of a cop-out. Developing a creative sense and style certainly depends entirely on learning to feel a song out and trying to best express an original vision. But, IMO, from the sound of it, you might be well served by working on a few fundamentals. The way a series of notes relate depends on their relationship with the key, their relation to the harmony at the time, and a host of other variables. For example, in the key of C, a C, E, or G note will sound very stable and consonant. But, a C over a G chord, or an E over an F, will beg to be resolved. Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone think consciously about melodic tension while writing (not in the "what note am I singing" way, at least). But, it might be a good idea to just sing tones over chords and get an idea how they relate. Try singing series of notes over chords. Picking notes at random to sing over a rhythmic phrase you've written will not "ruin your creative soul." You won't necessarily find gold either, of course, but there's little difference between this approach and the "just try until you find something."

I'd also like to point out that this snippet:

How do you plan on singing those notes? Do you have perfect pitch or are you going to hold a guitar tuner up while singing to see what notes you can sing?
Click to expand...

Could very easily point you in the wrong direction, only because it makes it sound as though knowing which tones you're singing is impossible. (Sorry Danny) Its entirely possible to develop your ear to the point where you can identify the tones being used in a key, or sing them from memory, given the root. If you're interested in developing that ability, I would recommend an ear training book (I'm currently using Berklee Press' Beginning Ear Training). It'll help you in both composition and transcription. (Note: I do not purport to have so developed my ear. I'm only stating that the ability exists and is learnable).

If you're terribly interested in learning about melodic tension, and a few other things, you might check out Melody in Songwriting, also by Berklee Press. Its rather mediocre, IMO, but will point out a few things that you might not realize you already know intuitively.

Or, conversely, you could say "Fuck off Sean, you don't have a fucking clue." Wouldn't be my first time. :cool:
 
Sorry, az, I don't think I worded that well.

I was just confused, I thought he was asking about what specific notes he could sing (like A, C#, D, etc), and was wondering how he'd know which note he was singing. ;)
 
danny.guitar said:
Sorry, az, I don't think I worded that well.

I was just confused, I thought he was asking about what specific notes he could sing (like A, C#, D, etc), and was wondering how he'd know which note he was singing. ;)
Click to expand...

Word. I suppose you would need perfect pitch to just know the specific note, rather than its relation to the tonic. Of course, you could figure it out knowing which scale tone it was and which scale you were in.

I have, at times, played a note, sung it, and sustained it while then playing a chord, to try to internalize the sound of them together.

Again, (not addressed to danny, just the general conversation) I'd like to stress that I wouldn't think of these things during writing (unless that works for you, in which case, who am I to judge). But, I think there's a lot to be said about stretching your ear and internalizing sounds, so that they become an intuitive part of your musical vocabulary. Most people do this without realizing it when they listen to their influences. Developing your ear also makes you more able to bring what you hear mentally out onto your instrument or voice.

Honestly, I believe that learning skills is like this; they may be rocky at first, but eventually become intuitive. The attitude that learning theory or developing technique will stifle your creative soul is entirely counter productive. "Just play," is rarely good advice.
 
RockNSoul said:
Alrighty,

Thanks for the replys yall!

I have issues with it sounding like I'm singing the same chord that I'm playing on guitar....and I want to get past that...maybe if I recorded it and wasn't playing it at the time.....maybe that would help?.....
Any ideas?

Another thing, I have some riffs where the first 2 chords are in 1 key and the next 2 are in another key....but it would all be part of the same progression. I guess I'll just try to use some of the notes in those chords and if that doesn't work...I don't know.....

Thanks again,
-Chase
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter. Don't think...Feel.. Your worst enemy is intillectual thought when you write...leave that for the mix, and arangements.. just do whatever comes naturaly to you, even if it's dissonant..it will be a heartfelt dissonance...which wins over half assed theoretical "perfection".

YOu could have all the notes the same even.. ever hear of the one note samba? Granted he lied and there are more than one note overall.. but it's mostly the same note being repeated over and over in a certain rhythm (depending on the arrangement) Just do whatever you feel and let the people who tell you it's "wrong" go suck on their own infant dicks. Songwriting is an expression of what's within, not an academic exersize.

The best song you ever write will the the one that touches people emotionally (regardless of what the emotion is). In order to do that, you need to feel with all your heart every note you sing. So just feel what you do, and do what you feel, and fuck everyone else.

Btw..the best songwriters are usually not the best musicians, and the best music theorists are usually just college music theory teachers.
 
TerraMortim said:
It doesn't matter. Don't think...Feel.. Your worst enemy is intillectual thought when you write...leave that for the mix, and arangements.. just do whatever comes naturaly to you, even if it's dissonant..it will be a heartfelt dissonance...which wins over half assed theoretical "perfection".
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more. Head over to the mp3 clinic. Lots of really passionate tone deaf users. Passion is good, but only part of the equation.

And there's no such thing as "half-assed perfection". If it's perfect, it's not half-assed, regardless of what it is.
 
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