How do I connect all this stuff?

[ivanosky]

I've spent a long time and a fair amount of money trying to put together the ideal home performance / recording setup, and I'm almost there. I just need some help determining the best way to connect everything.

First of all, the purpose of this setup is twofold. One is just performance ? I?d like to work out songs and improvise using all of the elements below (drums, voice, keyboard, guitar, ipod) at once. The secondary purpose is recording ? the ZED 10fx has a usb jack that will allow me to connect it to my computer. But that?s really not my focus right now ? at the moment I just want all of this to sound great in the room.

Rather than tell you guys how I?m currently configured, which is only producing failure, I figure it?s easier to outline what the ZED 10fx ins and outs are, and then to tell you what I am trying to connect, so that you can suggest how best to do it.

Allen & Heath Zed 10FX Mixer
Mono Input Channel 1, 2: ¼? jack and XLR mic jack
Mono Input Channel 3, 4: ¼? jack for guitar (hi-z) and XLR mic jack
Stereo Input Channel 1a: 2 ¼? jacks
Stereo Input Channel 1b: 2 RCA jacks (for mp3 player, etc.)
Stereo Input Channel 2: 2 ¼? jacks
Main Mix Insert R and L, ¼? jacks
Main Mix Output R and L, XLR jacks
Monitor Output R and L, RCA jacks
Record Out R and L, RCA jacks
Playback Input R and L, ¼? jacks
FX out, 1/4" jacks
Aux out, 1/4" jacks

Gear:

SM58 mic
Digitech RP1000 guitar multi-effects pedal (with multiple guitars)
Korg SV-1 keyboard
Alesis SR-18 drum machine
Ipod
Boss RC-50 Looper
KRK Rokit 5 monitors
Sennheiser 280 cans

I?d like to run everything out of the mixer and into the looper, however, I need the signal to return to the mixer because I want to use the mixer to monitor via the headphones and Rokits. This has proven to be trickier than I anticipated.

Any suggestions about the best cables to use for each instrument would be much appreciated. I don't mean brand, I just mean type (for example, I tried using unbalanced ¼? instrument cables with the Korg, and it sounded awful). And if everyone agrees that I absolutely must purchase a bigger mixer (like a Zed 12), I will reluctantly accept that conclusion, but I?d really like to try and squeeze everything in to the Zed 10fx if possible. Thanks!

 

[Armistice]

Not quite following what you're trying to do here. What things are you playing at once that you want to loop.

I'm not sure your little mixer's going to be funky enough to mix a bunch of stuff send it out, receive it back and then mix it again and send that signal somewhere else. I'm not a mixer expert, but it seems a big ask.Why must everything go into the mixer first?

Do you use both sets of outputs on the RC-50?

You may need a separate small mixer perhaps, if you're set on doing it that way, to process your signal for monitors etc.

And unbalanced 1/4 inch cables should be fine for a keyboard, I'd have thought. It's what I use to record with.

 

[ivanosky]

Thanks very much for replying.

I'm trying to loop everything at once. It's basically the same as if I was running a live band setup through this mixer (which a lot of people do), except rather than go out to a PA, I'm going out to a looper so that I can, for example, lay down drums, then piano, then guitar, etc. all by myself. Again, lots of people do this with the RC-50 in a live setting. And there is actually an easy way to monitor, which is to run everything out of the mixer via the Main Mix outs in stereo, then into the looper via the stereo inputs there, and then back out of the stereo outputs on the looper to the speakers or the headphones. The problem with this is that monitoring via the looper is annoying - disconnecting and reconnecting the headphones, not as much control over volume, no effects, etc. I would rather go back into the mixer and monitor from there, but I'm having a tough time figuring out how to do that efficiently.

As to the unbalanced 1/4" cables - it's a funny thing. When I plug headphones directly into the keyboard, it sounds gloriously present and detailed. For some reason, if I run the cables from the keyboard to the mixer, and then monitor via the headphones on the mixer, it sounds like it's in another room, and there is a faint echo at the end of every note. This is actually the opposite of what everyone else reports about this particular keyboard. Most people complain that it sounds far better through an amp or mixer than it does via the internal headphone jack. So something is wrong with my connection, and I'm assuming it's because I'm using a lower-quality output than what is recommended (Korg recommends balanced xlr cables for output).

 

[Armistice]

I'm still missing something...

The RC-50 has two sets of outputs - do you use them both for performance - ie. route particular looper inputs out the sub outputs and the phrases themselves out the main outputs - or do you only use the main outputs and are trying to feed only them back into the mixer?

I have the machine and I use it live, albeit with not as many things going on at once as I'm not a solo performer.

I'm still thinking that your problems are best resolved with a second small mixer that you route your outputs to and then to monitors or phones.... I mean, you've probably spent thousands on your set up... what's a small 2 channel Behriger mixer in the scheme of things?

I'm not a keyboard whiz but it seems to me that with that sort of line output, yer basic instrument cable should work fine.

 

[ivanosky]

I only use the main outputs, because I'm not trying to differentiate between any of the inputs or phrases - everything is going in and everything is coming out. I'm basically using it like a live sequencer or tracking software for the whole (one-man) band. But maybe I don't understand - is there a reason to use more than one set of outputs in this situation?

I would definitely get a second mixer if it would make things easier - is your thought that I could use the second mixer only for monitoring what's coming out of the looper?

 

[Armistice]

Send "moresound" a PM - he's a live & studio mixer guru round here - he might be able to work it out for you - like I said, I'm really not a mixer guy... I mean I have one, but I have all my sources going into the RC-50 and then out to the mixer, not the other way around.

I get what you're trying to do by having the mixer before the looper, I'm just not sure it's going to work...

And normally I'd sort of play around with what I've got here but I'm about to go on holidays for a month and I've just packed all the gear away, so I can only help on a theoretical level.

I use the RC-50 live, and I have an acoustic guitar, going into a multi-fx, going into the RC-50, and a separate mic going into the mic input of the RC-50 for when vocals form part of the loop, but my main vocal mic goes straight to PA. I also put the guitar itself out through the sub-outs and the loops through the main outs, so I can more clearly hear the thing I'm currently playing and have independent control of the loop volume etc.

Just a different way of working it - but if I was trying to do what you're doing with a larger number of potential inputs, I'd probably have a vanilla mixer for channel combining on the inputs - after all, you probably just need it for volume control, and a separate, real mixer for the outputs...

Anyway, talk to moresound and see what he says... and like I said, you've spent untold thousands to date... what's another couple of hundred to solve the issue.

Good luck...

 

[ivanosky]

I will definitely PM moresound. Thanks so much for the advice.

And for what it's worth, I have not spent "untold thousands." This is actually one area in which I can provide advice for any "Newbies" reading this thread. When I started playing the guitar twelve years ago, I decided immediately that I wanted to sell my crappy student guitar and buy one very good vintage guitar and one very good vintage amp. I worked a spare job and saved, all the while shopping for the best possible deals on both (hint - become friends with veteran musicians who don't know how to manage their money. In other words, 'veteran musicians' ). I then waited a couple of years to find the perfect trades for those initial instruments, which I parlayed into a larger collection of vintage instruments and pedals. I continued in this vein for several years until I was able to build the collection I have now, which also includes multiple guitars, ukes, horns and a gorgeous upright piano that used to belong to a famous person. In other words, I bought low and sold high, over and over, such that my initial investment in that great guitar and amp have essentially paid for all of the gear I've acquired since. So while I'm happy to say I have thousands of dollars worth of gear, I have not spent thousands of dollars. And I couldn't care less what it's worth anyway - I'll have most of it until the day I die.

So my advice to newbies reading this thread is this: don't get GAS and don't buy crap. Don't waste time on tons of threads reading about new technologies that aren't going to make you a better musician. Think about what always works: vintage American guitars and amps, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, the classic analog pedals, sm57 and sm58's and other classic mics. Be very careful about what you add to your setup, and be aware of its value over time. In general new stuff loses value, old stuff retains its value or goes up. So if you buy anything new (and you'll note I have several pieces of new gear listed above), make sure you get an excellent deal that will account for the inevitable depreciation, and don't keep it for too long. In general a well-regarded piece of 'new' (and by that I really mean 'contemporary') gear, bought used, will hold its value for a couple of years, but after that there will be a steep drop-off that might go all the way to zero.

This doesn't have to be an expensive hobby if you are smart about it.