Hot Seat for Mastering Eng's (The Professionals Only)

[jaynm26]

First apologize for my lack of ability to find this information on the forum so please excuse me if these questions you have answered in the past months (I tried to look and really couldn’t find some of my questions).

Again questions for the pro's (preferably Massive mastering, Red, and any other mastering eng that has their stripes)
I will just post the first few questions so not to over whelm the masses

1.) What would be your top (3 to 5) picks for mastering monitors?

2.) What is your top (3 to 5) picks on amplifiers?

3.) Do you feel that certain amps should correspond with certain monitors (such as in the case with B&W’s a Classe or Krell amps) Or Not and you feel the sound quality would be the same?

4.) What is your take on active vs passive in the mastering monitoring world? Do you feel active monitors can be used just as effectively as passive (as in the case with David Kucth and Focal’s Solo 6be) Or not and you feel passive monitoring is the only way to get true representation of sound when mastering?

5.) Do you use a sub or not? Which have you had the best results or workflow with?

6.) What are your top (3 to 5) picks for converts AD/DA?

 

[CrowsofFritz]

Some of these questions can be answered by non-professional aficionados. Don't know why it has to be limited to professionals.

Just saying this to encourage others to chime in their answers.

 

[Massive Master]

I've gone through a few loads of stuff -- A lot of well-known, some less well-known, some custom, freaky, esoteric, goofy, etc. on the way to using what I use now. Keeping in mind that I might not have too many suggestions -- I'm uber-picky and I either love it because it does what I need it to do or I hate it because it doesn't.

1) Tyler Acoustics Decade Series D1 loudspeakers.

A few people though I was out of my mind for selling off my B&W Nautilus 802's (if there were a "defacto standard" mastering speaker, the 802 would probably be right on the top. Abbey Road, Skywalker Ranch, etc.) for a speaker that wasn't even heard of in mastering circles. But there are more and more turning up all the time it seems and for darn good reason IMO. There's a glowing review in my blog somewhere if you're bored. Tylers D2's and MM5's would be very high on a short list also. Just about every other sub-$25k speaker I tried (and the D1's are considerably less than $25k) left me sort of bored by comparison. Certainly, B&W N or D802's (although I've found the tweeters too strident for me personally), Wilson, Eggleston, Canton, Duntech...

2) Pass Laboratories X250 (or the newer X250.5 or whatever it's called).

Again, just as close to sonic perfection as you can get without going overboard. The higher-end Parasound and Bryston units are nice too, depending on the speaker (the D1's are a little more forgiving with some amps - I even powered them with a Emotiva XPA2 for some time and didn't feel like it was a serious compromise).

3) Without question - sometimes.

My N802's for example -- Powered by a Bryston 4B, the tweeters could actually skin a tomato while leaving the rest intact. They were MUCH happier being powered by the Pass X250. But you can power the D1's with a Bryston without the scratch. And those Emotiva class "A" units (such as the XPA2) are quite decent and relatively neutral as well (for a mere fraction of the cost of a Pass X250). Would I expect an Emotiva to handle the hours and hours of high-impact that the Pass sails through? Probably not. But they really are quite good and ridiculously inexpensive.

4) I wouldn't want to hamstring myself into an amp that someone else picks. I've customized and modified my crossovers, had amp circuitry tweaked (etc.) trying to get just the right sound. Can't swap amps on an active set.

That always went with smaller studio monitors also -- Hated the hell out of Event's 20/20bas line -- But one day I heard the (20/20p?) passive models with a Rotel or a small Bryston or something and I couldn't believe how decent they could sound. My old Dynaudio BM15P's being powered by even my smallish Bryston 2BLP sounded much more consistent than the BM15a's did.

Not that there aren't some great sounding active units out there -- The older Genelecs (1030's, 31's), Barefoot (which uses custom Bryston amps if I'm not mistaken), even the Dynaudio, ADAM, Focal, etc. They're just not for me. And you really won't find many active systems that are (trying not to sound "gear snobbish" - honest) "worthy of the task" -- Again, there are some out there, but not many. Much more often found in nearfields (such as the 6be's) and midfields (BM15a's for example) than true full-range boxes.

5) I'll go through fire to avoid it. And if I did (I used to) it would be subs - Not 'a' sub. And it's a huge PITA to set up. And if you accidentally move something a half centimeter while you're dusting, you've screwed up the whole space. I'm already working with seven drivers per speaker - That's enough. Occasionally, I think "eh, maybe I'll grab a box or two one of these days..." just so I could switch it in and out for this or that. But the cost (SOOOOOO few subs roll off low enough to actually use *AND* go deep enough to use properly) and the pain (and again, the additional cost) of proper calibration, etc. -- I hope to never actually need subs again.

6) I'm not the only one out there that thinks Crane Song's HEDD192 has the best A-D ever conceived. And I'm quite happy with the D-A also (as well as the D-A in their Avocet monitoring controller - don't forget your monitoring D-A -- That's really the most important converter in the rig). There are bunches out there that you can hardly go wrong with though -- Lynx's HiLo is making a name, Burl, Lavry, Prism -- Several out there.

 

[Tim Gillett]

Some of these questions can be answered by non-professional aficionados. Don't know why it has to be limited to professionals.

Just saying this to encourage others to chime in their answers.

I dont understand either why it has to be just "professionals" who are qualified to answer.
Somebody might be a great mastering engineer but leave the equipment choices to others more skilled in that department. You dont have to be a gear boffin to be an ME.

And being a gear boffin never made anyone an ME. Some people just dont hear things. I know some of such people. They have far better gear than I have, and always did. But it hasnt improved their listening skills.

My non ME comments FWIW.

1. Speakers will probably always be the main source of distortion in the chain, in conjunction with the room and equipment in which they are placed, and how they are placed in relationship to your ears.

2. Amps much less critical because their distortion is much less a factor than for the above.

3. Certain amps with certain monitors? If they are matched to each other in accordance with the normal parameters, there's not likely to be problem. If they are not matched, of course there is more likely to be a problem. Brands dont matter. Matching does matter. So it's not a simple yes/no answer.

4. Active vs passive. Again it depends. With passive, it's easier to mix and match and customise, if that's what you're into and have the skills to do it and judge the results impartially.
But a good active design does match the speaker to the amp, and that's partly what you are paying for. The design work has been done for you. Also no speaker leads and connectors to worry about or to degrade the performance. So again, it's not a simple yes/no answer.

5. Subs? Again it depends. Phase alignment between the sub and the other drivers isnt nearly as critical as to require housing in the same cabinet. We're talking very long wavelengths, which means also that the alleged need for "subs" (stereo) is almost certainly a myth. It also means that moving the sub "a half a centimetre" will not screw things up. Our ability to locate left/right at very low frequencies is extremely limited if not non existent.

6. A bit like amps, good, reasonably priced modern converters are so good that the distortions they produce pale in comparison to that created by the speakers, room, furniture, desk etc and listener placement.

Recently I worked in a recently professionally designed and fitted studio with great "all of the above", from converters right through to the Genelec active speakers all the way from Finland, and yet even to non trained staff sitting in the studio, almost from day one there was a bad ringing apparent.

The designers were brought in again to check the system. They tested it again and found no fault.
The serious fault got through on both tests. Turned out the aircon vents were made of cheap sheet metal with no treatment to damp resonant vibrations.

Even when they re-tested the studio, they only used steady tones for testing. The ringing was mostly apparent, obviously, after a loud transient which quickly decayed, leaving the aircon vent ringing like a doorbell for seconds afterwards.

Common sense and good listening skills, not just money or brands, are the best guide. As I said, non trained people picked the ringing fault that the professional designers and testers missed, not once but twice!

Tim

 

[Waltz Mastering]

1.) What would be your top (3 to 5) picks for mastering monitors?

I think most will pick what they have. In my case I searched for mastering monitors for several months back in 2006-7 and came up with Dunlavy SCV's after auditioning B&W 802 and 801. I love them and will never need another monitor - ever. They go down to 20Hz +/- 1.5 dB and they work great for me in my chain of Mytek Conversion and (2) Bryston 4B amps

I am intrigued by John's recommendation of the D1's and would someday like to hear them

2.) What is your top (3 to 5) picks on amplifiers?

I have not auditioned equipment in a long time simply because I'm not in the market to upgrade or buy anything. Although one amp I would like to check out are the Hypex's.

3.) Do you feel that certain amps should correspond with certain monitors (such as in the case with B&W’s a Classe or Krell amps) Or Not and you feel the sound quality would be the same?

Yes. Everything has to work together Conversion/Amp/Speaker/Room/ You

4.) What is your take on active vs passive in the mastering monitoring world? Do you feel active monitors can be used just as effectively as passive (as in the case with David Kucth and Focal’s Solo 6be) Or not and you feel passive monitoring is the only way to get true representation of sound when mastering?

I don't like the idea of active monitors for mastering.

5.) Do you use a sub or not?

No.

6.) What are your top (3 to 5) picks for converts AD/DA?

I like the Mytek that I use but wouldn't mind checking the Forssell MADA converters out.

 

[jaynm26]

Massive you have some bold actions with that gear choice I respect that alot! You always here of the NS-10s being used in every studio. That is the first monitors anyone grabs even amateurs. You always hear the arguments that if everyone grab's the same speaker to monitor sound everyones music/mixes would sound the same. I don't know maybe it's not 100% valid but I think of those things. Same could apply to the wide use of the B&W 800's in ones opinion. The fact that your are willing to reach out against the lot speaks volumes of your character and guts! The amp choice again is very different as well although I have heard of Pass Labs but I have never seen one in action ever. I always find it interesting the philosophy of mastering Engrs Amp vs. Monitors entails I appreciate yours.I have heard the Genlecs 1031's there are AMAZING! For the most part I have not seen subs in mastering studio's but a few Mastering studios in LA I have seen some on small occasion and also in mastering studio's in Chicago. I thought it odd that is why I asked the question to see if more seasoned veterans were using subs at all. Crane Song, I have heard of it but not in the same talk as much as the others mentioned, Lavry, Prism, Burl etc. interesting. All very good information Massive I not only appreciate the time but the information given it will be kept and dully noted.

 

[jaynm26]

* To address the increasing comments of this being a professionals only thread*
Had no intentions to undermine anyone's intelligence. I simply wanted information from seasoned veterans of the art to get "well experienced" advice without having to cypher through ideas and philosophy of a person who is not qualified and who renders uneducated, and "self taught tricks" of information. Being studious to the questions and giving full respect to them who answered I did not want to have to toy with "audio childish ignorance".

If I did not want expert advice from experts I would would have just gone to youtube. Now since you so delightedly spent the time to read the title and express your tarted feelings speak no ill will intended. If you feel your advice is well suited and you are not a professional or highly acclaimed eng please give your answers.

 

[CrowsofFritz]

If I did not want expert advice from experts I would would have just gone to youtube. Now since you so delightedly spent the time to read the title and express your tarted feelings speak no ill will intended. If you feel your advice is well suited and you are not a professional or highly acclaimed eng please give your answers.

Tarted is not a word. If you meant it as an adjective to mean, "sour" feelings, then sheesh, take a trip to The Cave.

I'm not a ME, so I can't answer your question. But I can guarantee you that most contributing members here are more knowledgeable than the dweebs on Youtube. That comment was borderline insulting to this whole community.

I simply stated that other knowledgeable members (as opposed to JUST professionals) can contribute here as well, and you are going to start to show contempt?

 

[Massive Master]

You always here of the NS-10s being used in every studio.

A) Not in mastering studios (although I know a few that dragged theirs over from their old recording facilities).

B) It's not because they sound "good" -- NS10's were the replacement (for lack of a better term) "Cheap 'n Crappy" (no lack of a better term there) speaker once Auratone (a.k.a. "awful-tone") was no longer available. They don't sound good -- They sound like crap -- But reasonably "controlled" crap. They're short-throw, narrow-dispersion, limited range boxes that give a reasonably consistent representation in the near field. When studios adopted them as the "new Awful-tone" it was simply as a consistency grab. You could go to just about any studio and have an equally decent chance of hearing the crappy speakers (okay, okay -- they have some value I'm sure among some people -- I'm just not one of 'em. I hated them even before they started putting the "STUDIO MONITOR" sticker on).

Back to mastering speakers -- Almost exclusively with only very rare exception, full range, standard dispersion, standard throw boxes, almost never in the near-field. If they can't make it sound like the band is right there in the room with you, they're not doing the job.

Bold choices... Eh, I think that anyone who does this long enough, assuming that they're listening skills develop well, you wind up in a different mindset. There's not as much "A/B" involved as simply knowing what you want. You hear something and it either raises your eyebrows or it leaves you cold. Especially with speakers (because everything else is based on how accurately and consistently your speakers translate audio to your brain). The other stuff -- Pass amps, Crane Song outboard -- Actually very common in mastering studios. Hard to find a place without a piece or two with green knobs in the racks. The Pass amps aren't quite as common, but there are a decent bunch of really wonderful amps out there.

 

[jaynm26]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company
tart 1 (tärt)
adj. tart·er, tart·est, tart·ed
1. Having a sharp pungent taste; sour. See Synonyms at sour.
2. Sharp or bitter in tone or meaning; cutting.

Look its obvious from my previous post no statement was malicious If you felt that it was then that is your own thinking period, this conversation is not only childish but pointless

 

[CrowsofFritz]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company
tart 1 (tärt)
adj. tart·er, tart·est, tart·ed
1. Having a sharp pungent taste; sour. See Synonyms at sour.
2. Sharp or bitter in tone or meaning; cutting.

Look its obvious from my previous post no statement was malicious If you felt that it was then that is your own thinking period, this conversation is not only childish but pointless

Strange, my dictionary gave me no results.

But it was pretty cool how I was able to figure out the word simply by knowing the definition of tart. I like how language works.


I agree, it is childish. We're done.

 

[karumba]

1.) What would be your top (3 to 5) picks for mastering monitors?

i'm using the PSI A215-M and they are the most precise monitors i've heard up to now. i've recently also heard the tyler D1 (i friend of mine bought them in addition to his PSI) & they also sound very nice if setup & calibrated correctly. ATC100 come also into my mind. i don't know how the 802s sound - john, how would you describe the difference between the D1 & the 802N (not D)? what didn't you like on the 802 which you like now on the D1?

4.) What is your take on active vs passive in the mastering monitoring world? Do you feel active monitors can be used just as effectively as passive (as in the case with David Kucth and Focal’s Solo 6be) Or not and you feel passive monitoring is the only way to get true representation of sound when mastering?

in general i like active monitors over passive ones, since i think with active powered amps, you can go a bit further technically. look on the technical aspects of PSI or what abacus is doing, esp. how they treat timing & group delays etc.
AOI | PSIAudio

5.) Do you use a sub or not? Which have you had the best results or workflow with?

i had 2 subs before with my adams, but don't need them anymore. i'm anyway not a big fan of "subwoofered monitoring", but others like it to extend from 30hz down to 20hz.

6.) What are your top (3 to 5) picks for converts AD/DA?

i think mytek is very neutral, which is my approach for my mastering chain (i'm adding the sound with my outboard gear). burl is using transformers which is far away from my approach for mastering - maybe its better used only for recording. lavry is a bit "bigger than life" (esp. the gold, which makes a bit wider - you can even measure the difference on the S-channel) & softens a bit, which could be suitable or not. cranesong hedd is slightly coloring & also forsell, but i like it. prism (e.g. orpheus) is also a bit on the "bigger than life" coloring side - nice.
most of the high-end converters are more a question of taste, than real technical differences.

 

[jaynm26]

prism[/URL] (e.g. orpheus) is also a bit on the "bigger than life" coloring side - nice.
most of the high-end converters are more a question of taste, than real technical differences.

What Model of mytec are your running?

 

[jaynm26]

"my bad on the symbals and crap from my reply"

 

[rayc]

"tarted" as in "tarted up" could have some currency in this conversation though it may be UK English based slang and therefore not so common (that was a pun).
The thread title has been honey & vinegar I see. Perhaps combining them would make a nice marinade or add some ying & yang to a meal.
The O.P. is using a HOMERECORDING forum to address questions to professionals with some regard to setting up. Whilst I respect the views of those M.E.'s who've responded, (and was interested in the ball park figures on a purely voyeuristic level), the fellow really ought to be looking for/to a professional peer forum.
I suspect another online project studio is in the offing.
I galso et the feeling that the OP believes the right to hubris comes with the AD/DA package he already has.

 

[chuckduffy]

Tarted is not a word. If you meant it as an adjective to mean, "sour" feelings, then sheesh, take a trip to The Cave.

I'm not a ME, so I can't answer your question. But I can guarantee you that most contributing members here are more knowledgeable than the dweebs on Youtube. That comment was borderline insulting to this whole community.

I simply stated that other knowledgeable members (as opposed to JUST professionals) can contribute here as well, and you are going to start to show contempt?

PLUS, AND, BUT... - This is HOMERECORDING. There are some pro mastering guys with serious chops who hang out here, but the main focus is on 'hobbyist' recording...

 

[Waltz Mastering]

I think many pro's started at home.. ..and these days a lot of pro's are working out of their home.
so home recording could encompass novice or pro.

 

[Massive Master]

I think many pro's started at home.. ..and these days a lot of pro's are working out of their home. so home recording could encompass novice or pro.

On top of that (and I really hope this doesn't come out the wrong way), when I was a hobbyist, I'd consult with other hobbyists on some things. But if I really wanted to improve on things, I sought out the advice of professionals. It made me a better hobbyist.

 

[chuckduffy]

On top of that (and I really hope this doesn't come out the wrong way), when I was a hobbyist, I'd consult with other hobbyists on some things. But if I really wanted to improve on things, I sought out the advice of professionals. It made me a better hobbyist.

It totally doesn't come out the wrong way to me. From what I've seen you strike a great balance - willing to share. Your work kinda speaks for itself. My real point being - I would ask you for advice about equipment, but I know that the answer is most likely something beyond me given that my entire recording setup is worth about 2K, because I am homerecording - like a lot of other folks here.

 

[Massive Master]

There's a back-and-forth on some of that... As Tom mentioned, most pros didn't start out as pros. And while there is absolutely no doubt that there's a HUGE amount of misinformation out there concerning "budget" rigs, there's also some quality "budget" gear out there.

And I can only speak for myself again (but I'm sure I'm not the only one in this position), I get projects in from every possible range in quality. From some of the most horrible crap you could possibly imagine to projects consisting of some of the greatest recordings I've personally ever heard. And with some frequency (not as often as I'd like, but often enough), I end up discussing gear and technique with the client -- enough to spot patterns in just about everything. Mics, preamps, converters, interfaces, software, hardware and (especially and most importantly) monitoring and room treatments.