high-end preamp help

  • Thread starter Thread starter Richard Monroe
  • Start date Start date
R

Richard Monroe

Well-known member
Well, I think I've finally completed the mic cabinet, and although the funds won't be available for a while, I'm beginning my search for the pre from hell now. I am quite sure I don't have the ears to select this sucker, so like many things, I'll be soliciting good advice from the fine ears of this board. Here are the parameters-
I need a 2 channel pre, or 2 well matched mono pres. They must have real analog needle level indicators, LED's will not be acceptable. It must have a high-Z instrument in on both channels, and ideally, they should accept unbalanced TS and balanced TRS jacks. Tubes are not necessary, and may actually be less desireable than a good solid state amp. Pads are desireable, although high and low pass filters are not necessary. Line level inputs are absolutely necessary. High gain (+50-60db) and low noise are essential. I'm looking for a clean pre for vox and acoustic instruments mainly, guitar, harp, violin, piano.
The price range sort of maxes out at $1250 per channel, so I'm looking for a $1500-$2500 dual channel preamp. I'm considering Avalon, Focusrite, and TLC Audio, but I'm sure there are many others. I looked at Great River, but the ones I've seen don't have needle indicators. Remember, we're not trying to add color here, we're looking for clean gain with low noise. So hit me with your best shot. I'm out of my depth.-Richie

P.S.- Please don't give me your input on budget pres, we're not talking about a VTB-1 here.
 
without the analog meters, there goes the gordon audio mic preamp, the phoenix drs-2, the buzz audio ma-2.2, the john hardy, the api, etc. have you considered just getting a pair of vu meters from coleman?

steve
mojo pie
 
btw, if i was looking for the pre from hell, then i'd be looking at the gordon. second place would go to the phoenix.
 
Well, no, Oz. I'm not going to pay that kind of money for a pre, and then go out and buy meters for it. My studio is too compact to have that many discrete units floating around. Aside from which, it's not in the price range. As I said, the limit is $1250 per channel.
C7, did I read this Davisound link right? TB-10 at about $500 per channel is a little more than a Joemeek twinQ! Hell, if the sound is good enough, I could buy 2 of them. That's less than half the price of a compareable Avalon unit. It looks like there's a lot of in-house attention to detail, and all of the critical features are there. Now it's just a matter of the sound, and as you may or may not have figured out by now, I'm hearing disabled, and really have to track by numbers and believe other people's ears.
Do you have any personal experience with this unit, and can you contrast it with Avalon AD2022?- Thanks again.-Richie
P.S.- and it *does* have XLR line ins, according to the website.
 
Richard Monroe said:

I need a 2 channel pre, or 2 well matched mono pres. They must have real analog needle level indicators, LED's will not be acceptable. It must have a high-Z instrument in on both channels, and ideally, they should accept unbalanced TS and balanced TRS jacks. Tubes are not necessary, and may actually be less desireable than a good solid state amp. Pads are desireable, although high and low pass filters are not necessary. Line level inputs are absolutely necessary. High gain (+50-60db) and low noise are essential. I'm looking for a clean pre for vox and acoustic instruments mainly, guitar, harp, violin, piano.
The price range sort of maxes out at $1250 per channel, so I'm looking for a $1500-$2500 dual channel preamp. I'm considering Avalon, Focusrite, and TLC Audio, but I'm sure there are many others. I looked at Great River, but the ones I've seen don't have needle indicators.
Click to expand...

Richie, it seems like your requirements are so restrictive that you will not end up with much of a choice, and they're a little puzzling besides.

First of all - metering. Sure, VU meters are cool and all that, but basically you use the meters on a preamp to set a level that's not too soft (to avoid noise issues) and not too loud (to avoid clipping). After the level is set, you may glance at it a couple of times during the session, but that's pretty much it. So why does it really matter that much what kind of meter you have. There's some pretty high end preamps, both vintage and modern, that don't have ANY meters at all, and they still are highly prized.

Second - TRS? Why? Almost all your really good preamps are going to have XLR inputs and outputs (unless they're really old and have a barrier strip). There are exceptions, but TRS is mostly found on prosumer preamps. C'mon, spring for a couple of XLR cables! (Or better yet, learn to solder!) And unbalanced? I thought no noise was one of your primary requirements?

Throw in your other requirements, like DI's, and you may just have eliminated 99% of what's out there that otherwise would have given you a slamming sound.

If I was looking at a CLEAN (no coloration) preamp, I would look at the Grace 201 (which is a much better unit than two 101's, and the price reflects that...), the DACS micamp, or one of the Earthworks pres.

But given all your other requirements I'd go with the Avalon 2022. The Avalon has the variable loading that makes it extremely versatile for different types of microphones. It actually DOES have VU meters and DI's. But I don't think it has TRS or unbalanced jacks in the back. You might just have to bend on that point. It also just barely squeaks into your $2500 budget - the Grace 201 would would probably cost you about $1600, and the Earthworks dual pre about $1200. But no DI's or VU's. But if you get the Earthworks, you could go buy yourself a couple of Avalon U-5's to go with it at the same price as the 2022. (Just guessing on street prices).
 
I would say go with the Avalon, then. Its a nice unit all around.
BUT, you do know that analog meters are not nearly as accurate as an LED, right? THat they rarely ever show you where a hard transient like a snare drum is actually peaking since they are too slow.
With the Great River MP2-NV... you get 2 channels that are clean OR colored (Great River is known worldwide for thier huge 3D soundstage and "magic) If you want mega clean, you turn the preamp gain down, the output gain up. If you want mega colored, you turn the preamp gain up and the output down. Its essentially like having 4 preamps. I cant imagine why anyone WOULDNT buy a Great River if they are spending $2000.
Spend wisely.
And what was that crap about no wanting lowZ inputs or something? I didnt see that. Dont ruin you signal path.
 
You misunderstand me, LD, I don't need TS or TRS outs, I need them on the DI in, because I use a wired line level broadcast mic, a Shure SM82, for multiple applications. I have to feed it phantom power remotely, so I'm feeding a mic into the pre at line level. But I do like this mic. XLR outs are fine. Only some high-Z ins will accept a balanced TRS line. XLR line level ins would be fine. Of course, the guitars are TS. I use vu meters because I can't hear well enough to set levels, I have to do it visually, and I find analog level indicators give me a much more accurate picture of pre and post levels than LEDs. I also understand that the significantly greater headroom available in most high-end pres will help here. And yes, the 2022 has all the features I need, and I think the TB-10 does also. The question is, how do they compare in sound?-Richie
 
Thanks for the input, Tubedude, on level indicators. Who knows, you could be right. It may be that the pedestrian LED indicators I've been looking at just suck. The question is, are my eyes and brain fast enough to note fast transients causing clipping, or not.? I've learned to set levels visually, and I've found it simply easier on my eyes (and brain) to work from analog indicators. Maybe I'm just being lazy. When you're deaf in one ear, and you can't hear anything over 7K, the world is different. What you call "highs" are a theoretical construct to me.-Richie
 
One of these perhaps?
It is a tube pre, but that doesn't mean its colored.
It seems to fit your criteria... most of it anyway.
 

Attachments

  • mdp1.webp
    mdp1.webp
    15.9 KB · Views: 320
Thanks Michael, that's one I hadn't considered, and yes, it meets the criteria. In spite of the doomsayers, a lot of higher end pres do. What I need is a little testimonial and comparison opinions. You see, unlike most of you, I don't hear very well, so I've found the best policy for me is to get the opinions of a lot of good people and average them out a little. If the majority of recorders and engineers on this board agree that something sounds good, it usually does. What I've got so far is- almost nobody will say the Avalon sucks, but a lot of people think it's overpriced. Davisound has a clear group of supporters, but I haven't gotten any input from anyone that can compare the units for performance. My guess for starters is that the Avalon 2022 is probably a great DI box, if it's anything like U5, and that's one of the functions I need.
I'll add your link to the research list. Of course, averaging opinions on expensive gear is harder than cheap gear, because the people who own it are a little more opinionated (and knowledgable). Keep it coming guys. Someone convince me that a TB-10 can do what an Avalon does. If it can, it's a sold unit.-Richie
 
The Pendulum is da bomb! No question... but for some reason I thought it would be over the $2500 limit. How much are they going for these days?

Richie, you may be asking the impossible. When you start talking about $2500 preamps, any one of them will probably sound wonderful for your applications. At the very least, you've got to figure that the preamp will definitely NOT be the weak link in your recording chain. Whatever limitiations your recordings have (mics, room acoustics, engineering skill, cabling, recording device etc.) the preamp won't be one of them. Once you narrow the field down to the elite few that meet your price and features criteria, everyone will have slightly different opinions.

You do have a fortunate dilemma - being forced to pick between $2500 preamps is kind of like being asked who would you like to spend a week on a tropical island with: Jennifer Anniston, Jennifer Lopez, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Lucy Liu, or Vanessa Williams?

Everyone is going to have a slightly different order of preference depending on their personal taste, but let's face it, any of the above will probably make you one happy guy!
 
Thanks, LD, and Mercenary has the Pendulum at $2495.00. Well you know, your vote counts for a lot, as one of the ultimate mic and pre snobs. My current focus has probably narrowed it down to Avalon, Pendulum, and Davisound, and right now, Davisound is looking strong at $1500 less than the competition.
I hope I wasn't too confusing about the need for line level ins.
You see, I bought this old mic, the SM82, at a yard sale for $10.
I had no clue what it was, but it was a slightly dented, wicked long Shure mic with a serial #. I figured any Shure specialty mic with a serial # that might work would be worth $10.
Well, I got it home, plugged it in, and nothing. Like an idiot, I turned on the phantom power and nearly blew up a set of cans!
Ripping the cans off and powering down, I decided I'd better do some research. The mic was meant to run off of some mercury batteries which are now banned, or phantom power, but the output is line level, and is capable of running over 1.5 km of cable!
I think the last one was made in 1986, and it was basically a $700 condenser mic then. They say it's cardioid, but I would say hypercardioid, as the off axis rejection is phenominal.
I think a bunch of gear will be going to support a pre upgrade, but this mic simply isn't part of it, it will stay. Well, in the end, if I go with Davisound, it will happen sooner than later. Pendulum or Avalon will take a little longer. Right now, I'm using Joemeek twinQcs, and that will probably stay.
BTW, LD, I think the "clipping" you heard on the harp track is the tewb drive on a DBX386 creating distortion on purpose. I'll separate the tracks and send you CD's of both, and see what you think. The transducer went through Joemeek, and I think it's OK.
In the end, you're right, LD, but remember, I had to look at all those beautiful womwn through a magnifying glass, and they all look the same, but I'm going to use one of them to make this porno movie, you see. So all I really care about is how they will look to somebody else. So I'm asking the board whether they like
Terry Farrel or Faith Hill. Right now, Davisound is willing to sign the contract for a hell of a lot less.-Richie

P.S.- Michael, thanks for the geocities link. Make that $2250 for the pendulum, LD.
 
Last edited:
Richie:

Sounds like you are in good shape. But I wouldn't worry about trying to design your whole recording chain just to accomodate your SM52. I'm not sure what you will be using it on, since you now have the Kiwi and all those other nice new mics.

So, assuming it is going to be only an occasional/specialty mic, just keep using it with whatever you've been using it with. What I'm a little confused about is, if the mic itself outputs line level, then that would imply that you don't need a preamp for it at all!
 
Duh, LD, sometimes I need people like you to point out the obvious. I'll try jacking the mic into a line level in on the recorder and see what happens. It doesn't give me quite as much control over the gain. Using an outboard pre allows me to keep the gain as low as possible on the Roland's pres. Gee, I wonder if going into a line level in would bypass them entirely. Somewhere, the channel level is set, and that's adjustable, implying that even a line level in is routed through the pre in some way, because the level is set by the channel pot, assuming an analog in. I'll experiment with it.
And, really, I don't think it's creating an entire signal chain around an SM82 to ask that a pre have line level ins. Really, though, after the KIWI and possibly AKG C414B-ULS, the SM82 may be the best mic I own. It acts a lot like a high end dynamic, and I have a secondary ongoing project that is almost entirely spoken voice, and it will probably be the primary mic for that project. It's not that important, because my twinQcs has line level ins that work just fine with the 82, and frankly, it's not a bad preamp. I'm leaning toward the Davisound, though, because I can afford it in the near future, and it looks like it will probably meet my humble needs quite well.-Richie
 
Since in that case you wouldn't be using the preamp as a preamp, but more as an outboard fader, you could also accomplish the same thing running the mic directly into an outboard compressor and use the volume control on the compressor to do the same thing. If you are going to have a compressor in the chain anyway, then you are probably better off doing it that way.

Before you commit to the SM82 as a voiceover mic, you might want to do some critical listening (maybe with a borrowed pair of ears) comparing it with the Kiwi and the SM7. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them sounds at least as good.
 
Yo Rich....

I dunno if this helps or not but I have a customized Davisound TB-6. I realize that the TB-6 does not meet your requirements but what I can tell you is that Hayne Davis makes the real deal and is a cool cat who will work with you.

I must have asked a million questions before I finally bought and he was polite and very honest and helpful the entire time. I had certain needs and was exploring certain avenues that meant custom bits and he was willing to help without crazy added on fees.....example.....he added two full extra instument pres to my unit for less than an extra hundred bucks.

What Im trying to say, in short, is....not only does the Davisound stuff sound UNBELIEVABLY nice and cost so little comparatively, but it also affords the option of getting "personal" small details added (large ones too, I imagine) added for that extra "just what I needed" touch.

I cant really compare it to much. I DID, however, use it next to a set of APIs and Neves and can say that the Davisounds held their own just wonderfully. This is not to compare directly, since we are talking totally different designs here, but when i wanted FAT and fuzzy, the Neve kicked ass.......when I wanted CLEAN, DETAILED and ACCURATE, the Davisounds were beautiful! KM84s on drum overs...sweet! They make my M160s sound great as well!

I dont own the APIs or the Neves and was very curious as to how the Davisound would fare when i finally got to use them next to each other at a real pro facility. I was impressed and thrilled that I could walk away proud.

I've also heard then next to a set of Digimax's and it was just embarrassing....really....not even in the same class.

Definately email Hayne and explore the option at least before you decide. I have no affiliation with the company....just a happy customer! (Of course I should probably shut up before he raises his prices:D )


heylow
 
I have a couple of the HHB Radius 40s which I like. I've found them to be quite versatile. I don't know if they would fit your needs. I think I paid about $700 each for mine.

- Wil
 
I like the HHBs too. From your list, I've only had my hands on the Avalons (737s). VERY nice preamps.
 
Thanks a lot, Heylow and Trackrat! It does help, because I want clean and I value customer service a lot. I'm more or less settled on the TB-10 unless a real cool deal jumps up in my face. Now all I have to do is raise a grand. I think trying to sell gear right before Christmas is probably the wrong time. Oh well, I think this is the last piece of major gear for a while..-Richie
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top