Help me with M+S

  • Thread starter Thread starter noisedude
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noisedude

noisedude

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Can someone give me, or point me to, a detailed description of how to do middle and side? I will have a couple of takes to have a stab at it on Monday and I really want to give it a go. I need something a little more descriptive than the piece on the DPA Mic University site.

I don't have phase reverse on the desk, so I will be recording into Audition and doing it all from there. The mics are AT4050 multi-patterns.
 
I hope you are familiar with how to align the cardiod and the figure of eight during recording.
So when you have recorded everything into Audition, you take the channel with the figure of eight mic and duplicate.
Phase reverse one of them and pan that fully Right, the other figure of eight track pan fully Left, the cardiod track pan to the middle.
I suggest that you gang the two figure of eight channels.
Now you can vary the stereo width with the level of the figure of eight channels.

I hope this make some sort of sense, english isn't my first language, but i hope you understand the concept of it.

Mats B
Karlstad
Sweden
 
That's a superb thread, Light, thanks. Cheers Mats, too. Your English is excellent ... better than that of many people on here .... !!!

My confusion came because someone had said to me you should balance the two fig-8 tracks until they cancelled out. They had already said to pan the two out hard left and right, so I didn't understand how that would work.

So you set the two tracks to the same volume (I don't think Audition can gang tracks together :() and pan them out, leaving the cardioid or omni in the middle?

Will be trying this on either acoustic guitar or upright piano ... anyone got any thoughts on which it would be best suited for? Going to try out Blumein on the other.
 
noisedude said:
So you set the two tracks to the same volume (I don't think Audition can gang tracks together :() and pan them out, leaving the cardioid or omni in the middle?
Click to expand...


Yes, but they need to be EXACTLY the same level. You set the level before you pan them out, so they can cancel out in mono, and THEN you pan them out hard. If you try to set levels after paning them, they will not cancel out (of course).


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Yep - you can type a specific number though into the software mixer, so it'll be no problem to get them exact. Thanks for your help.
 
Exchanges like this make me realize as a newbie how little I know about recording. I can't see ever understanding the subtleties of the craft to this degree. It's a bit overwhelming. All I can hope is that this kind of detail is the kind of discussion taht goes on between pros and that even without ever understanding to this extent I may one day turn out something at least half-decent. Carry-on.
 
noisedude said:
Yep - you can type a specific number though into the software mixer, so it'll be no problem to get them exact. Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

Just make sure you get them to cancel out in mono, because even in the best case senario, you could have a hardware or software problem which could make them NOT exactly right. The only way to make sure it is right is to hear them cancel out.

As for where to use MS, I almost never do. When I mic in stereo, I like to use methods with some degree of time based directionallity (XY is right out as well). And of course, the real truth is that I rarely mic in stereo. But try it on anything. It may work for you.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light - I hear you. It's for a coursework piece and I have to use two different stereo arrangements. Rather than just doing spaced and coincident pairs I'm going to try M+S on an upright piano (how pointless!) and either Blumein or ORTF on an acoustic. It's just a fiddle to get better marks. We'll see whether it actually sounds good or not!

Cheeky Monkey - I'm pretty much a beginner ... but because I get let loose in a studio with some half-decent gear every so often, I come here with threads that are out of my depth and learn to swim, fast!
 
noisedude said:
Light - I hear you. It's for a coursework piece and I have to use two different stereo arrangements. Rather than just doing spaced and coincident pairs I'm going to try M+S on an upright piano (how pointless!) and either Blumein or ORTF on an acoustic. It's just a fiddle to get better marks. We'll see whether it actually sounds good or not!

Cheeky Monkey - I'm pretty much a beginner ... but because I get let loose in a studio with some half-decent gear every so often, I come here with threads that are out of my depth and learn to swim, fast!
Click to expand...

I use the M-S configuration all the time, and find it works really well with drum kits... it helps eliminate many phase issues during (and after) tracking. I place the mic's in front of the kit; the "figure 8" pattern LDC mic is placed "right side up" on a shock mount, aimed sideways, with the single pattern LDC placed "upside down" on a shock mount, directly over (and almost touching) the other mic, aimed straight at the kit.

If you place the mic's correctly, you'll wind up with a very nice stereo image of your upright piano, or any other source, too. ;)
 
Ok I think I screwed my work up big time.

Audition totally sucks too.

I thought I'd done it right, but when I reversed the phase of the piano fig-8 track it seemed to select every track at that point, but before I realised I had clicked elsewhere and so deselected the segment. Of course, Audition didn't log it as an action and wouldn't let me undo :(

I don't know that it definitely did that, but I can't seem to get the two fig-8 tracks to cancel, but now that I think about it, I may not have dragged the second one down to the exact same point ... which would explain the very odd phasey sound I ended up with before I panned them out.

This sucks ... I have 90 mins left in the studio in which to try fix this, get my imported drums in time, mix, EQ and sort out reverb for the whole lot. Coursework thoroughly spoils my experience, and I could get better results with home gear at my leisure rather than rushing in an alien studio.
 
Man I hate Audition. Used it for 10 minutes before I nearly threw the cordless mouse through the monitor.
 
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