Help me get my direct guitar sound a bit more realistic sounding

T

twangbuck

New member
Hey looking for some advice. I have two fenders (strat and a tele) and a silver faced champ. I'm taking the signal from the champ into a Behringer Ultra G speaker sim/direct box (in conjunction with a weber mini mass so I don't blow up my champ). From the Behringer (which has one xlr output) I take the signal into a Whirlwind Selector A/B box, and from there I run both outputs into two channels on my zoom R8. The signal then goes from the Zoom into a windows based pc running Cubase le.

I use the Whirlwind selector so I can put different types and amounts of reverb on each channel and pan them, one left and one right, to (very) roughly simulate the sound of dual mic'ing a cab (one close and one room sound). That trick is working pretty good, but I have two issues:

First, the channel coming out of one of the outputs of the whirlwind (but not the other) is peaking just a tiny bit, no matter how much I turn the level down on the R8. Its' not horrible, and that's the channel I'm using for the 'room sound' anyway so it's not very high up in the mix, it's just there to fill things out a little bit and bring in some room type sound. So it's definitely useable, it's just weird that one output's doing that while the other is totally fine. Thoughts?

Second, overall the sound is pretty good, though not quite as realistic as actually mic'ing a real amp. Any suggestions how I can improve the sound of running the champ direct? Admittedly I'm using cables that aren't great, and I know the Behringer is very low end. Is there a better speaker sim/direct box I could buy that wouldn't be as pricey as a Palmer or Torpedo CAB? I'm thinking something in between the Behringer and the Torpedo in price, so maybe something in the $200-$250 range?

I'd like to try this option first rather than explore direct/speaker sim pedals like the Tech 21 Character series. I might go that route if I can't improve the quality of what I'm using, but I've used those things before and I think there could be a bit more overall up side to using the champ.

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!
 
Have you considered building an iso box for the champ? Build it roomy enough for two mics and you could eliminate the Behringer, A-B box, and use the Mini Mass as an attenuator instead of a load box.(if you still needed to) That would most likely give you better results than your current method.
 
i would think even micing the amp at BEDROOM volumes, would sound better than all the other signal path....


there are two devices i like to capture tube amp guitar sound direct off the amplifier's speaker output, a Palmer PDI-09 (which i own) and a Radial JDX (which i've used at a local studio)


these are the best ways that I've found, to get line level signal that actually sounds like a miced up cab.

granted, you don't get any room effect, but i've found that the clarity of the signal trumps the room effect, plus, if you are a good mixer, you can add the room effect artificially.

the added benefit of those two devices is, if you CAN record at full volume, you can add a 2nd signal to the capture with an actual mic, at a distance, and blend THAT signal into the direct, and that is a really rich sound that has clarity and three dimensionality.


just another idea....
 
Thanks all. I am certainly interested in buiding an iso box of some sort, but my dilemma is my house is very small, it's plaster walls and hard wood floors and sound resonates like crazy through it, especially the low frequencies. I need to be recording when my wife and daughter are asleep at midnight and 1 in the morning, so whatever I build would have to be extremely soundproof and small. My concern is that if I build somehthing like that and don't like it, I'll have to rip it apart and start over. Not that that's a problem, but it takes more time, and I have stuff I need to record in the short term.
So I'm thinking an iso box of some sort is more a long-term solution that I'll have to work on a bit at a time (if I can find room for it), while any parts I need to record in the short term I can do with a direct solution, if one can be found that's a bit more realistic sounding than what I'm getting now without breaking the bank.
Not sure how much the Radial costs (the Palmer's out of my budget), but that is an option I can definitley explore.
Thanks again!
 
Look into VST cab sims. You can run your amp silently direct and add cab emulation in your DAW. There's about ten million of them for free out on the web.
 
an iso box, will ALWAYS sound like you are in a box.

i know this from years of experimenting with a Demeter Silent Speaker box, and using several other variants.

you would be better off building a 'closet', large enough to house your cabinet and mic setup, doubles as a vocal booth.
 
GONZO-X said:
an iso box, will ALWAYS sound like you are in a box.

i know this from years of experimenting with a Demeter Silent Speaker box, and using several other variants.

you would be better off building a 'closet', large enough to house your cabinet and mic setup, doubles as a vocal booth.
Click to expand...

Thanks !!!


you just saved me from some pain :)
 
GONZO-X said:
an iso box, will ALWAYS sound like you are in a box.

i know this from years of experimenting with a Demeter Silent Speaker box, and using several other variants.

you would be better off building a 'closet', large enough to house your cabinet and mic setup, doubles as a vocal booth.
Click to expand...

And sounds about as good (!) as using a closet for a vocal booth? :facepalm:
 
yes, a good treated closet will sound a hundred times better than that specific 'in the box' tone

any decent pro studio will have a similar room for guitar cabs.
it happens all the time.
 
GONZO-X said:
yes, a good treated closet will sound a hundred times better than that specific 'in the box' tone

any decent pro studio will have a similar room for guitar cabs.
it happens all the time.
Click to expand...
They're not "closet" sized though. A vocal booth or cab room in a real studio is an actual room, not a closet. A real studio's vocal "booth" isn't a booth at all. It's a real room.
 
i've been in some pretty small booths before.

i'd call them closets.

i guess everybody has had different experiences, eh?
 
I've been in several pro studios, and only one ran an amp in an iso room. And while it was small, it was still a room. It was not a closet by any means.

Every other studio ran amps in the main tracking room.
 
OF COURSE, we are not debating full sized studios here, we are talking iso boxes (i've owned two) and home studios, and the worth of a vocal booth, doubling as an amp booth, versus the sonic qualities of iso box.

i guess, i should just kick back, watch people bang their heads against the wall, and chuckle to myself.
why i bother to try to help sometimes, i just don't know.
 
GONZO-X said:
OF COURSE, we are not debating full sized studios here, we are talking iso boxes (i've owned two) and home studios, and the worth of a vocal booth, doubling as an amp booth, versus the sonic qualities of iso box.

i guess, i should just kick back, watch people bang their heads against the wall, and chuckle to myself.
why i bother to try to help sometimes, i just don't know.
Click to expand...

Whoa, calm down. So no one can disagree with you or you're just gonna take your ball and go home?

Let me clarify my stance here before you go crying to mommy - I'm simply saying that I don't think sticking an amp in a closet is a good idea unless you want it to sound like an amp in a closet. You related a spare bedroom treated closet to an actual studio's cab room/vocal booth. Not the same. A real studio's amp/vocal room isn't the size of a few winter coats and some guest linens. Many studio's vocal booth alone is the size of a full home studio. The actual tracking room is usually pretty huge in a real studio. That's a far departure from a closet.
 
Iso boxes are used in live situation all the time, but this is a totally different environment than recording. I myself have no experience with them in my studio, but I also have not needed them. I can say that when I have recorded amps in small untreated rooms (8X10X8') they sound way crappy compared to a 13X25X9' treated room. Even close mic'd the mics will still capture the qualities (or poor qualities) of the small space. Reflections that cause nulls and peaks of the room. The cabinet itself will sound different in a small space.

That being said, it really depends on the sound you are after. A closet or small room will always sound like a small room. It is how you are able to use what you have in any given situation that counts.

LINK to Korn live setup stuff including iso boxes for live. They would surely never use them for recording....
 
Greg_L said:
Whoa, calm down. So no one can disagree with you or you're just gonna take your ball and go home?

Let me clarify my stance here before you go crying to mommy - I'm simply saying that I don't think sticking an amp in a closet is a good idea unless you want it to sound like an amp in a closet. You related a spare bedroom treated closet to an actual studio's cab room/vocal booth. Not the same. A real studio's amp/vocal room isn't the size of a few winter coats and some guest linens. Many studio's vocal booth alone is the size of a full home studio. The actual tracking room is usually pretty huge in a real studio. That's a far departure from a closet.
Click to expand...

i used the word 'closet' generically.

i implied it should be treated like a 'vocal booth', only smaller, to suit a typical home studio setup.
i've used several of these, they work great, and still are a great improvement over the compressed and nasal sound of an iso box, since even a 'closet'-sized booth will allow for expansion of the sound, even at high DB....


i don't really care if someone uses my experience or advice, i just want to make sure i'm getting my ideas across is all.
 
Another option that I've used on guitars to tame reflections without a total dead box sound is to build a "tent" over the amp/cab/mic using some basic quilts/blankets. It's a little bit of work....but it does the job. Use 1-2-3 quilts/blankets...so you can decide how much isolation you want.

AmpTent01.jpg

AmpTent02.jpg

AmpTent03.jpg
 
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