help! I'm stuck. don't know where to turn next

[halfred]

OK. I'm experimenting with recording myself on my S&S B )classical solos from the romantic era--Rachmaninoff, Granados, Chopin etc. etc.). I started with Pulsar 11's because they were cheapo and got good reviews. I heard a recording online using them and it sounded great. A reviewer said they were suprisingly good copies of Neumann k184's except with more "sparkle in the mid-range." I've been experimenting with them in ORTF. They are too noisy. I have to go out from the open piano lid at least five feet to get the blended sound of the piano and especially to not pick up the damper noise. Then I decided to buy a newmatched pair of NT1a's (cheaply.) I thought they might have a richer sound and they did. I loved it and they were totally quiet. Only problem now is that I have to move them at least 6-7 feet back from open lid, and they just seem to loose too much detail .They sound great! closer up, put they pick up the damper noise. I'm stuck! Any suggestions? I started thyis dialogue back in "recording techniques" where I got a lot of great suggestions. I was even warned about using LDC's given the recording circumstances.

 

[Big Kenny]

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/ApplicationGuide/Grand Piano.aspx
best advice I've found

 

[Jeff_D]

I'm curious what the rest of your setup is. What preamps are you using? What are you recording on?

 

[darrin_h2000]

I wouldnt use them in the exact same spots...and you might use felt and lubrication to deal with the dampers the best you can...you should get adivice from a piano tuner for the latter...but you may use a pad on the mics and use them farther away from the damper.

 

[gecko zzed]

OK. I'm experimenting with recording myself on my S&S B )classical solos from the romantic era--Rachmaninoff, Granados, Chopin etc. etc.). I started with Pulsar 11's because they were cheapo and got good reviews. I heard a recording online using them and it sounded great. A reviewer said they were suprisingly good copies of Neumann k184's except with more "sparkle in the mid-range." I've been experimenting with them in ORTF. They are too noisy. I have to go out from the open piano lid at least five feet to get the blended sound of the piano and especially to not pick up the damper noise. Then I decided to buy a newmatched pair of NT1a's (cheaply.) I thought they might have a richer sound and they did. I loved it and they were totally quiet. Only problem now is that I have to move them at least 6-7 feet back from open lid, and they just seem to loose too much detail .They sound great! closer up, put they pick up the damper noise. I'm stuck! Any suggestions? I started thyis dialogue back in "recording techniques" where I got a lot of great suggestions. I was even warned about using LDC's given the recording circumstances.

So what about a spot somewhere between "6-7 feet back" and "closer up"?

The other thing is to reconsider your thoughts about the piano sound. For exaample, every musical instrument has its suite of mechanical noises associated with being played: finger squeaks on guitars, pads and valves opening and shutting on wind instruments and so on. You might like to think of these (and consequently your piano-playing noises) as part of the performance, and just live with them.

 

[Shadow_7]

A common mantra is buy cheap buy twice. And you might be attacking the problem from the wrong end. What is your backend like? Preamp? Converter? I went from laptop soundcard to a usb interface to an after market PCI soundcard to a DSD field recorder until I got results that I was semi-happy with. With very similar complaints, noise floor and detail. Of course it helps to have nice front end too. i.e. Studio Monitors to hear how the recording actually sounds. Not that you don't have this covered, but we don't know because you didn't state those details.

 

[darrin_h2000]

So what about a spot somewhere between "6-7 feet back" and "closer up"?

The other thing is to reconsider your thoughts about the piano sound. For exaample, every musical instrument has its suite of mechanical noises associated with being played: finger squeaks on guitars, pads and valves opening and shutting on wind instruments and so on. You might like to think of these (and consequently your piano-playing noises) as part of the performance, and just live with them.

Digital pianos dont seem to have this problem...lol.

 

[halfred]

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/ApplicationGuide/Grand Piano.aspx
best advice I've found

Thanks for the link Big Kenny. I have read it (and everything else online!) haven't tried small condenser cardioids or omnis yet. I was adsvised by a lot of people not to use the omnis unless i close mic which is not an option at this point because i don't want the damper sounds in the recording, Since i'm recording in my living room, I was told that omnis at a distance wouldn't be a good choice. Have tried ORTF but not A B yet.

 

[halfred]

hello Jeff D

I'm curious what the rest of your setup is. What preamps are you using? What are you recording on?

I'm currently using a microtrack 11, temporarily which may not be doing the mics much justice with the cheap preamps. I will be purchasing an Tascam HD P2 in a few weeks with an Oade Borthers high defintion upgrade. Really want a Sound Devices 702, but outside my budget. My living room is about 13x30 with ceilings probably about 8 feet or so. The piano sounds pretty fat. Directly parallel to the bend of the piano I can go out about 5 feet. Past the piano and stillpointed at the bend I can go out about 6-7 feet.

 

[halfred]

hello darrin_h2000

I wouldnt use them in the exact same spots...and you might use felt and lubrication to deal with the dampers the best you can...you should get adivice from a piano tuner for the latter...but you may use a pad on the mics and use them farther away from the damper.

Thanks that is a good idea. I'm having the piano regulated and voiced soon and I'll discuss that with the Steinway Tech. What do you mean by pads on the mics?

 

[halfred]

Hello gecko

So what about a spot somewhere between "6-7 feet back" and "closer up"?

The other thing is to reconsider your thoughts about the piano sound. For exaample, every musical instrument has its suite of mechanical noises associated with being played: finger squeaks on guitars, pads and valves opening and shutting on wind instruments and so on. You might like to think of these (and consequently your piano-playing noises) as part of the performance, and just live with them.

Yeah, I thought of including the mechanical noises, but then I nixed it. Music to me is the ultimate illusion, and the damper noise sort of blows this "ideal" impression I'm trying to make. And a lot of the pieces are very "tranquil" and the noise interferes with the "feeling."

One closer and one farther out? I thought that would mess up the stereo image or maybe that doesn't matter in regards to recording solo piano---?

 

[halfred]

Hello shadow_7

A common mantra is buy cheap buy twice. And you might be attacking the problem from the wrong end. What is your backend like? Preamp? Converter? I went from laptop soundcard to a usb interface to an after market PCI soundcard to a DSD field recorder until I got results that I was semi-happy with. With very similar complaints, noise floor and detail. Of course it helps to have nice front end too. i.e. Studio Monitors to hear how the recording actually sounds. Not that you don't have this covered, but we don't know because you didn't state those details.

I'm just using a field recorder.temporarily It is a Microtrack 11 which I realize is i adequate particularly regarding the preamps. I will be replacing it shortly with a Tascam HDP2 with an Oade brothers high definition upgrade. I would like a Sound devices 702, but is outside the budget. I'm using a field recorder to simplify things for myself as much as possible and also to have some equipment I can use to record my student recitals and if i should have the opportunity to record myself on a Steinway D somewhere etc. etc.. Being a novice at this, not particularly "tech' oriented, and without really knowing anyone in the recording field, I'm trying to learn as much as possible while cutting out as many variables as possible and working within a somewhat limited budget.

 

[darrin_h2000]

Thanks that is a good idea. I'm having the piano regulated and voiced soon and I'll discuss that with the Steinway Tech. What do you mean by pads on the mics?

Most of the time the mics will have a pad switch which will make them less sensitive...I guess if I remember right the NT1 didnt have any switches...but you might have one in the chain somewhere...I have them on my pres too.

I have the lady from our city's ballet next week and Ill be doing a similer job with 2 AT3035 mics and a line6 ux2.

 

[Shadow_7]

It helps if you have someone else play the paino while you try a few things out in terms of mic placement and such. That's a much faster learning curve than recording one way each rehearsal and finding out that it wasn't that great after the fact. Microtrack II? Is that the one with auto gain staging. If it is, that must kind of suck for classical piano. No dynamics and all. I have a Korg MR-1000 myself. Stellar converters, and the preamps aren't too shabby either. Sometimes I'd want to get my hands on a sound devices equivalent, but I'm probably going to settle on an external battery powered preamp to feed the Korg. It really depends on how my lottery tickets play out.

SDCs are prefered since they tend to have flatter response curves. i.e. sounds like a piano through the entire register of notes. And not like a string bass on the low end and a harpsichord on the high end. OMNI's if you want to have room ambience. Close mic'd with Omni if you want to have it weighted in favor of the piano sound. Cardioid if you want to focus in on just the piano. I guess it just depends on if you want to feel like you're in the same room as a piano, or actually inside the piano. Think of Omni as an audio lantern, where Cardioid is more like an audio flashlight. But you probably knew that already.

 

[halfred]

Most of the time the mics will have a pad switch which will make them less sensitive...I guess if I remember right the NT1 didnt have any switches...but you might have one in the chain somewhere...I have them on my pres too.

I have the lady from our city's ballet next week and Ill be doing a similer job with 2 AT3035 mics and a line6 ux2.

right, no switches on the NT1A's. But the Pulsars have them. Which switch are you referring to? You seem to use those A 3035's a lot. What do you like about them? I see that they've been discontinued. Are the 3035's now called 2035's?

 

[halfred]

It helps if you have someone else play the paino while you try a few things out in terms of mic placement and such. That's a much faster learning curve than recording one way each rehearsal and finding out that it wasn't that great after the fact. Microtrack II? Is that the one with auto gain staging. If it is, that must kind of suck for classical piano. No dynamics and all. I have a Korg MR-1000 myself. Stellar converters, and the preamps aren't too shabby either. Sometimes I'd want to get my hands on a sound devices equivalent, but I'm probably going to settle on an external battery powered preamp to feed the Korg. It really depends on how my lottery tickets play out.

SDCs are prefered since they tend to have flatter response curves. i.e. sounds like a piano through the entire register of notes. And not like a string bass on the low end and a harpsichord on the high end. OMNI's if you want to have room ambience. Close mic'd with Omni if you want to have it weighted in favor of the piano sound. Cardioid if you want to focus in on just the piano. I guess it just depends on if you want to feel like you're in the same room as a piano, or actually inside the piano. Think of Omni as an audio lantern, where Cardioid is more like an audio flashlight. But you probably knew that already.

Yeah I've read a lot of good reviews of the MR-1000. Don't know anyone who I would want to have play the piano, but I enjoy doing the work myself. I haven't used anything but the microtrack, so nothing to compare. I just have read about the problems with it and I know, like everything else. you get what you pay for.And I have read about the capabilities and reviews of every major field recorder. Isn't the Korg 1000 the one with a higher bit resolution or some special type of file that's supposed to be superior or something like that? So you are thinking of an external preamp---not totally satisfied with the preamps in the Korg?
Thanks for the mic analogies, I have a sense of some of the them, but the way you put it helps organize my thoughts. As I stated I haven't yet tried SDC's yet. The Pulsars that I have are considered SDC's however they have a 3/4" diaphram so haven't used a mic with a 1/2" diaphram . Thinkingof getting a pair of Studio Project C4's although I really want a matched pair opf modded MK012's.
The truth is I have some idea of the sound I'm after but not I'm not 100% sure of what I want. In the piano ---definitely not. Focused ---maybe. Open airier sound ---probably. Natural sound ---probably, although the Rode NT1A's injected a bit of added warmth to the already warm piano tone and it had this sort of "larger than life" sound which I was sort of stunned by. The notes sounded a little "fuzzy" around the edges. It sounded like my piano ---and it didn't. I really liked it. Sort of sounded like "the Steinway B from Hell'' LOL! I view music as the ultimate illusion, so the piano may not NECESSARILY need to sound natural.The recordings I did with the LCD's sounds a bit "fantastical" which compliments the musical material really. So these are some of the issues that I'm trying to sort out..

 

[Shadow_7]

Yeah, the MR-1000 is a DSD recorder. Supposedly a larger dynamic range than 24 bit. And a sampling rate of 192k x4 or something like that. The files end up being about 1GB for every 12.5 minutes for a stereo image. i.e. It's great at getting all of that detail of sound that you think that you're missing. It even keeps that detail when down sampled (or maintains the illusion of detail anyway). But the onboard preamps supposedly lack a little low end and other quirks that are fixed by a mod, or by using an external preamp. IMO my mics lack a little low end, whether that's the mics or the preamps has yet to be proven. I tried feeding it with a DMP3 on the front end, and there really wasn't much noticeable difference in results. I still liked the Korgs preamps slightly better though. As an MP3 player the Korg rules the roost. It really brings out the highs and lows that gets stomped on by low end gear.

You might try using a Samson Zoom H4. It's much more affordable, and very respectable. And popular so you should be able to pick one up reasonable. And if you get something better, it should be fairly easy to offload. You could also try feeding the microtrack with a different preamp, say a DMP3. Lots of options to squeeze out every little bit of detail. If you have high hopes, you might not be quite satisfied until you have the best of the best in all dimensions. At which point it might be cheaper to rent studio time, than to actually buy the cow.

 

[halfred]

Yeah, the MR-1000 is a DSD recorder. Supposedly a larger dynamic range than 24 bit. And a sampling rate of 192k x4 or something like that. The files end up being about 1GB for every 12.5 minutes for a stereo image. i.e. It's great at getting all of that detail of sound that you think that you're missing. It even keeps that detail when down sampled (or maintains the illusion of detail anyway). But the onboard preamps supposedly lack a little low end and other quirks that are fixed by a mod, or by using an external preamp. IMO my mics lack a little low end, whether that's the mics or the preamps has yet to be proven. I tried feeding it with a DMP3 on the front end, and there really wasn't much noticeable difference in results. I still liked the Korgs preamps slightly better though. As an MP3 player the Korg rules the roost. It really brings out the highs and lows that gets stomped on by low end gear.

You might try using a Samson Zoom H4. It's much more affordable, and very respectable. And popular so you should be able to pick one up reasonable. And if you get something better, it should be fairly easy to offload. You could also try feeding the microtrack with a different preamp, say a DMP3. Lots of options to squeeze out every little bit of detail. If you have high hopes, you might not be quite satisfied until you have the best of the best in all dimensions. At which point it might be cheaper to rent studio time, than to actually buy the cow.

My microtrack broke already--waiting for m-audio reply to my incident report--I hate cheap crap--

Yeah I've learned through reading that as far as preamps go you get what you pay for. I think the Tascam HD P2 with the rebuilt preamps will do me fine in lieu of not being able to afford an SD 702. (Boo Hoo) The Tascam goes for about $1175---a lot of things on the unit are upgraded.
I just listened to a shitload of recordings online made by an amateur classical pianist. I think I liked the SDC's sound a lot better than the LDC's. Even the AKG 414's--they sounded beautiful but think lost too much of the definition. Particularly like one of the recordings with a Schoeps. My favorite mics were too much $$ for me. Now I'm thinking that either 3/4" or 1/2 " diaphram may be a better choice. I'll keep experimenting with the Pulsars I have but I'll need to get some small SDC's to compare. I didn't like any of the recordings I did in XY--they sounded nasty, but in ORTF they sounded pretty damn good---rich but detailed. The xy just sounded silly detailed.

 

[darrin_h2000]

right, no switches on the NT1A's. But the Pulsars have them. Which switch are you referring to? You seem to use those A 3035's a lot. What do you like about them? I see that they've been discontinued. Are the 3035's now called 2035's?

They dont seem all that close to me looking at the AT2035 specs...the 3035 should have been asorbed into the AT40 series...its that much better than the lowly 20 series...which I dont reccomend at all.

Anyhow the 3035 mics have pad switches that atttenuate sensitivity...and they can be had right now for arround $50 and are by far the best bang for the buck in the used mic market.

 

[Shadow_7]

How does the 3035 compare to say 4041's or NT5's?

I got my Korg MR-1000 for $770 used. One cosmetic scratch, but beyond that mint. And they had only been out for about a year and MSRP'd around $1,200. Pretty awesome bang for the buck. Of course I'm looking at supplimenting it with a sonosax SX-M2 for $1,000-ish someday. I love the quality, but at some point I have to balance usage and costs to more reasonable realms. I'm sitting at over $2K worth of recording gear, and I've only recorded 2 shows of consequence this year. Although it's kind of fun to shoot footage and audio of those thunder storms that pass through these parts. But I'm more of an audio guy. And I haven't quite weatherproofed my gear yet. But I have a plan for that too. But it involves a bit of DIY. The commercial options are just inadequate or pricey.