Heavy metal drums question

[ez_willis]

AFA what the OP understands about miking techniques...well, that's for him to state

come on, man. can't you just take an educated guess for the fun of it?

Ok, so I read an article in a magazine about recording heavy metal drums.....

 

[WickedGtrTone]

To the OP:

Don't worry about needing stereo-matched pairs of identical mics, especially for your purposes.

You also might consider spot-micing the cymbals & editing the tracks so that the mics are "gated". This will allow the greatest degree of control.

And whoever suggested the Recorderman technique for this purpose either
a) didn't read the OP, or
b) has never made a metal record

Either way....

 

[Farview]

Back in the 80's, there was a time when people had more budget than sense. That was when they would mic every cymbal. That technique belongs in the same catagory with people who track the hi hat, then the snare, then the kick, etc... Yes, it can work. No, it isn't standard operating procedure.

Most of the time, there is a pair of overheads in a spaced pair config. Each drum is mic'd individually. The snare might have a bottom mic and the kicks might have a mic on the inside and outside.

The kit needs to be well tuned and the drummer needs to hit the drums in such a way that it makes the appropriate sound.

If all else fails, use samples.

All the drums are gated, compressed and EQ's beyond belief. The overheads tend to be low passed around 300hz or so and squashed with a compressor.


YMMV

 

[miroslav]

read dudes question again:


he ain't looking for the truest form of stereo micing technique. he needs to capture the cymbals as well as the rest of the kit with four mics. best way to do that IMO is to use the NON-STEREO IMAGE recordman method combined with a kick and snare mic.

better?

Then what was the point of your video post...?...because it also didn’t really answer his question.

"Can you use two unmatched mics with a stereo pair when miking cymbals?"

But I wasn’t answering his question in that one post I made...all I said was that the Recorderman video was NOT showing a stereo miking setup.
To which a few folks (you included) came back to say yes it was, and that is what prompted this mini-debate....
All this other stuff you are tossing in about the OP maybe not knowing what he wants, and/or how good the Recorderman setup sounds....etc....is irrelevant to that debate.

Now...AFA the discussions about the Recorderman setup being the best way to capture a whole kit with just 4 mics...I disagree. If the audio in the clip is what it’s supposed to sound like, it’s nothing special, and rather tightly centered (if that’s what you want)…but there’s no stereo spread, and when capturing a whole kit, I thnk a stereo setup sounds better.

IMHO...the M/S stereo pair is a better way to go if you want a whole kit....and also in a true stereo spread....and then just spot-mic whatever else you need, and IMO, you don't need a lot more. I only spot the Snare and Kick in addition to the M/S pair.

The Glyn Johns method (which the Recorderman is a hacked variation of) is also NOT a stereo mic technique…though many will call it such.

Also…both the Recorderman setup and the Glyn Johns setup might be OK for a smaller kit…but if you have more Toms/Perc to the outside of the snare and wrapping around…then your L/R gets skewed ‘cuz your one mic is way over by the floor Tom.

YMMV....

I think we need to first decide if in this thread we are talking about stereo miking a kit...or just miking a kit.

 

[Zombre]

lol This thread keeps getting better, seriously! A wealth of info in every post hahaha Keep it comin'!

 

[Farview]

The debate almost doesn't matter, because I've never had the recorderman or glyn johns setup work well for "metal".

 

[ez_willis]

Then what was the point of your video post.

to give him a way to capture his kit in the best way that i know of with 4 mics. the kick and snare mic placement is RELATIVELY obvious. the video shows specifically how to setup the two overheads in a totally effective manner.

The debate almost doesn't matter, because I've never had the recorderman or glyn johns setup work well for "metal".

i have no idea, honestly. i record myself in a crappy room, and it definitely ain't metal.

 

[ez_willis]

If all else fails, use samples.

you wouldn't happen to have a link to a preferred product, would you?

 

[Simman]

Nope.

Every stereo miking technique that I've seen documented requires that mics be set up as some form of "mirror image" of each other...or something like the M/S and Blumline Pair setups, which use one or both mics in figure of 8 polar pattern...etc.
(Just look at the resources I provided)

Those two mics are unlike any stereo setup I've ever seen...one is pointing straight down and the other is angled. One is about 4' off the ground and the other about 3'.
That’s NOT a stereo mic technique…that’s just a two-mic technique that can be used to create a L/R pair, but you can do that with two mics placed in just about any position….but it’s still not *stereo miking*.
If you placed two mics in front of an amp...one pointing at the cone and the other at the edge of the speaker...is that stereo miking?
Nope.

The third link I provided shows the ways to stereo mic a drum kit...none are like the video.

I respectfully disagree. Stereo is defined as two independent audio channels though a symmetrical configuration (recorderman is symmetrical so it satisfies that requirement) that gives the impression of sound being heard from multiple locations (recorderman satisfies that requirement) so the technique provides multiple independent channels that give the impression of sound from various directions; Uh... that would be stereo.

 

[grimtraveller]

Stereo is defined as two independent audio channels through a symmetrical configuration (recorderman is symmetrical so it satisfies that requirement) that gives the impression of sound being heard from multiple locations (recorderman satisfies that requirement) so the technique provides multiple independent channels that give the impression of sound from various directions; Uh... that would be stereo.

Interesting. The dic says in relation to stereo> "sound reproduction in which 2 separate channels are utilized in order to produce the effect of 3 dimensional sound distribution".
Massive Master in this thread
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?p=3331565&highlight=Stereo#post3331565
said;

Both sides does NOT equal "stereo" -- Stereo is the DIFFERENCE between left and right.

I think that sometimes we do need to clarify exactly what we mean, but I also think that many of us use a loose kind of shorthand that may not be technically accurate but which many understand or have some idea of when heard. "Stereo" is one of those terms. Am I wrong in thinking that many of us use the phrase as the kind of opposite of "mono" ? A bit like the dictionary definition ? It's a bit like referring to a song as being "a pretty dynamic piece". One wouldn't mean that it goes from quiet to loud. One would generally mean fast, busy, exciting, full of movement or something in that vein. Oui ou non ?

 

[miroslav]

I respectfully disagree. Stereo is defined as two independent audio channels though a symmetrical configuration (recorderman is symmetrical so it satisfies that requirement) that gives the impression of sound being heard from multiple locations (recorderman satisfies that requirement) so the technique provides multiple independent channels that give the impression of sound from various directions; Uh... that would be stereo.

I guess you missed the part where one mic is pointing straight down and the other one is angled (NOT symmetrical)...and where one mic is like 4' off the ground and the other is about a foot lower (also NOT symmetrical).

 

[Parkerguy09]

Thanks for all the helpful tips. There's a lot of good info in this thread.

 

[miroslav]

Here's some metal drum mic setups:

 

[ez_willis]

I guess you missed the part where one mic is pointing straight down and the other one is angled (NOT symmetrical)...and where one mic is like 4' off the ground and the other is about a foot lower (also NOT symmetrical).

and i guess you missed the part that shows the distance of each mic being symmetrical with the snare drum and center of the kit.

and seriously, i don't give a shit if it's technically stereo or not. remember folks, IF IT SOUNDS GOOD IT IS GOOD!

 

[miroslav]

Equal distance from the Snare doesn't = symmetrical mic setup.
One mic is off to the side, the other is above...

And I don't give a shit if it sounds good...TECHNICALLY IT'S STILL NOT STEREO!

 

[Simman]

I guess you missed the part where one mic is pointing straight down and the other one is angled (NOT symmetrical)...and where one mic is like 4' off the ground and the other is about a foot lower (also NOT symmetrical).

I disagree again, the recorderman mic setup is symmetrical. Height off the ground has nothing to do with it. If you take a horizontal XY configuration and turn it vertically, the fact that one mic is now closer to the floor is irrelevant. Whether the mics are right next to each other or spaced x feet apart is also irrelevant with regard to symmetry and stereo for that matter.

Symmetry occurs when you have matching points whose connecting lines are bisected by a given point (in this case the center of the snare). In the recorderman setup, each mic is equal distance from the bisecting point, the center of the snare drum. Tweaking the angle of the right mic (drummer's perspective) serves to align the "connecting line" of the mic to the center of the snare thereby centering the snare in the stereo image. Put headphones on, hit the snare while someone changes the angle of that mic and listen. As the mic angle changes you will hear the snare move (right/left) in the stereo image.

Dude this does produce a stereo image but hey you can certainly think it doesn't. I will agree that all this has little to do with the orignial question posted.

 

[Simman]

Back in the 80's, there was a time when people had more budget than sense.
YMMV

Even today this holds true; there are a lot of people that have no sense. If fact budget and sense are often inversely proportional

 

[Farview]

you wouldn't happen to have a link to a preferred product, would you?

True, but my product only really works with Drumagog...but some of them are totally metal.

 

[miroslav]

Dude this does produce a stereo image....

WRONG.

Stereo miking symmetry is not just about equal distance from point source...it's also about angles, and the angles are NOT symmetric in the Recorderman setup, not by a long shot...but you can make believe they are if it works for you.
So like...if you put one mike 3' feet above the snare...and another mike 90° to the right of the Snare and level with the Snare but also 3’ feet away...I guess that would be "stereo miking" according to your perspective about equal distances???

That Recorderman setup does not resemble ANY stereo miking technique that I've ever seen documented by anyone that knows stereo miking, and stereo miking techniques have been around a loooooooong time now.
If you can find it...I'll reconsider.

 

[Farview]

Miro is simply pointing out the difference between stereo micing a source and creating a stereo image. Technically, they are two different things.

Stereo micing something is different than creating a stereo image by throwing mics around and panning them.

The recorderman method gives you the illusion of space. Stereo mic techniques give you the illusion of the space.

There is nothing to argue, he is right.

Is a stereo mic technique the only way to get a stere image, no. But the recorderman is not technically a stereo mic technique. Just like multitracking guitar parts to get a stereo image isn't a stereo mic technique.