Heavy metal drums question

[miroslav]

Stereo micing something is different than creating a stereo image by throwing mics around and panning them.

YES!

Thank you.

This is something a lot of guys get confused about...and it's understandable why they do.
They see a pan knob on each channel...they see it goes Left and Right...they then take two mics or two tracks and pan them Left/Right and call it stereo.
Sure...it can *appear* to sound like stereo...but in reality it's often mono sources panned left/right...two tracks or just two mics placed in any two locations, picking up the same sources.

Every stereo miking technique requires very specific mic placement...and they have all been clearly documented and used for many, many years now.
The Recorderman setup ain't one of them.

 

[Zombre]

See, the thread carries on, and still has useful info. Awesome.

 

[Simman]

Stereo micing something is different than creating a stereo image by throwing mics around and panning them.
.

That is utter nonsense. Aren’t we arguing opposite sides of the same coin?

Stereo is two-sources that work together to add to the "sensation" of a real (3 dimensional) soundscape; nothing more nothing less. This requires a variance in one (or more) of the following: time, frequency and level relationships between the respective channels.

By the way, everything (as it relates to this subject matter) is transformed into an image!!

I agree with you that one "real" discriminator (now) in all this is the pan knob. And why is that you might ask? Well because when they invented most of these “mic techniques” there were no such things as pan knobs to reposition the source within the space itself. Therefore, having no ability to alter source position/localization within the soundscape (where the sound is located within the space) was by the physical position of the source in relation to one (or both) of the microphones.

It appears to me that the varying points of view simply come down to the method used to create the sensation of real space and/or localize the sound source within some soundscape. There are, as with many aspects in recording, more than one way to do that.

peace

 

[miroslav]

That is utter nonsense. Aren’t we arguing opposite sides of the same coin?

Not really, and no.

You are simply trying to rename/reinvent what true stereo miking is and has been for like....80 years.

These are the only miking techniques defined as *stereo miking*.

Panning a pair of mono sources to create a pseudo stereo image is something different. While you can artificially create a pseudo stereo image of some source...it will not be the same as if that source was recorded using one of the stereo miking techniques shown above, and which I've pointed out that the Recorderman mic setup is not.
Can you create a pseudo image of the drum kit filling out the L and R sides with the Recorderman setup...yes...but stick something like an M/S pair over the kit and it will sound different...specifically, it will sound more natural and lifelike, and almost the same as how your ears (binaural) would hear it if they were in that same position as the stereo mic pair.
Your ears will never hear the kit the way the Recorderman setup does…therefore it’s not stereo (binaural) miking.
That’s the definition…you can either accept it or you can ignore it and say it’s all nonsense and really the same thing…but you know, there are hundreds of documented sources describing the exact same *stereo miking* techniques (some I already provided links to earlier)…so I guess you’ll then need to get in touch with all of them and also tell them it’s utter nonsense…..

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Can you create a pseudo image of the drum kit filling out the L and R sides with the Recorderman setup...yes

I agree with that and your earlier distinction between stereo micing and stereo (or pseudo-stereo) reproduction.

...but stick something like an M/S pair over the kit and it will sound different...specifically, it will sound more natural and lifelike, and almost the same as how your ears (binaural) would hear it if they were in that same position as the stereo mic pair.
Your ears will never hear the kit the way the Recorderman setup does…therefore it’s not stereo (binaural) miking.

I disagree with that ("almost the same as how your ears (binaural) would hear it"), except for the part about sounding different and perhaps better, and I disagree with equating stereo and binaural. Mid-side lacks timing differences between the two channels. True binaural has those timing differences that closely match what happens with our physically separated ears, something coincident pairs lack, and it is best heard through headphones. If I wanted to get picky I'd say that true binaural would have to include the pinna effect, but that would be impractical.

Ultimately it's not a matter of absolute right and wrong, it's about having meaningful and useful definitions of the phenomena to make communication effectve, which is where I come back to agreeing with you for the most part.

 

[e-man]

triggers on drums + midi module + good metal drum samples = metal drums.

 

[miroslav]

True binaural has those timing differences that closely match what happens with our physically separated ears, something coincident pairs lack....

You're absolutely right, M/S isn't *binaural recording*...which I kinda was implying in a half-assed way when I said "almost the same" and I was just loosely tying it all back to Blumlein’s view of stereo recording as that which produces "binaural sound".

Mainly I was pointing out that *stereo miking* follows symmetrical positioning and angles and distances sorta like our ears would...
...where just having "two mics" in a non-symmetrical/random configuration does not...even though they can be used to create a pseudo stereo image.

 

[grimtraveller]

Pseudo-masochism

...where just having "two mics" in a non-symmetrical/random configuration does not...even though they can be used to create a pseudo stereo image.

Stereo, pseudo stereo, true miking, artificial image......I'm curious as to how many punters can tell the difference. I'm curious as to how many punters have ever heard of pseudo stereo. Am I wrong in thinking that we sometimes over complicate matters that aren't going to influence how tomorrow's adults grow and perceive the world, mutter...grumble...rant...rave....grizzle.......whinge....mumble.....cough....splutter.....







































































I jest of course ! This has been pseudo fascinating in a stereo sort of way.

 

[Parkerguy09]

Ha ha... Thanks for the pics microslav I love In Flames... That's awesome that you found a pic of their drum miking setup.