Heavy metal drums question

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Parkerguy09

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Ok, so I read an article in a magazine about recording heavy metal drums, and it says that the overheads are basically there to capture cymbals and that each cymbal should be miked preferably. Right now I have a stereo matched pair of Rodes NT55s placed as overheads, I also have a pair of AKG C 3000 B's not stereo matched, and I'm thinking about using these mics to record the hi-hats and ride cymbal. My question is will this cause "unbearable" phase problems in the mix? Can you use two unmatched mics with a stereo pair when miking cymbals? Any advice would be greatly appreciated thanks.
 
I think you will find that if you focus on miking the drums...the cymbals will take care of themselves. Most times people are looking for ways to take out some of the cymbal sound rather than get more by miking them individually.
I don't even mic the HH seperately as I get plenty in the OH mics and also some in the Snare mic.

Where do you have your OH pair...outside in front facing towards that kit, on the sides of the kit, or inside the kit?
 
I have them inside the kit about 24'' above the crashes. Right now I'm trying to get the snare in the center of the stereo field, I've heard various methods of doing this like using a piece of string to measure the distance between the two OH's and the snare.
 
read this then watch this. then just do it:

[video=youtube;<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/IiFOD1EeKhQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/IiFOD1EeKhQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>]video[/video]
 
One thing though...isn't he asking about a stereo pair?

That setup in the video is not a stereo mic setup.....
 
Recorderman captures a great stereo image and is very effective. For metal don't worry about micing the cymbals you'll get plent of them in the OHs mic the toms.
 
The Recorderman Method is pretty awesome, but i don't think it's a good way to get a wide stereo spread. At least i know i've never been able to.
 
set up the overheads as best you can, then just listen.
maybe the ride or one of the crashes seems quiet?
if so, then mic it, but don't bother if you don't see a need. go ahead and mic the hats, you may not use it, but better to have and not use then to need and not have.

i think these guys that mic everything are doing it mostly as a "just in case" which is fine, provided that the default is (not to be used) because there are lots and lots of possible issues with that many mics in one place.

also, in metal it's very common to hi pass the oh's really hard, at like 500hz or so. it won't sound that good soloed up, but here's the trick, none listens to your tracks soloed up, so who cares.
 
ez_willis said:
pretty sure it is. you're capturing the kit as your left and right ear hear it.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Every stereo miking technique that I've seen documented requires that mics be set up as some form of "mirror image" of each other...or something like the M/S and Blumline Pair setups, which use one or both mics in figure of 8 polar pattern...etc.
(Just look at the resources I provided)

Those two mics are unlike any stereo setup I've ever seen...one is pointing straight down and the other is angled. One is about 4' off the ground and the other about 3'.
That’s NOT a stereo mic technique…that’s just a two-mic technique that can be used to create a L/R pair, but you can do that with two mics placed in just about any position….but it’s still not *stereo miking*.
If you placed two mics in front of an amp...one pointing at the cone and the other at the edge of the speaker...is that stereo miking?
Nope.

The third link I provided shows the ways to stereo mic a drum kit...none are like the video.
 
if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it fuckin matter what the definition of a sound is?
no.

their fore, it's in stereo.
 
Great perspective. :rolleyes:

It's not a matter of *my* definition VS someone else’s...it has to do with audio/acoustic properties. This shit was defined a LONG time ago and is known by many.
If you want to learn something - start here:
http://www.flipkart.com/book/professional-microphone-techniques-david-miles/0872886859

If you just wanna call it "stereo" just 'cuz you hear it out of both speakers...fine...but it's NOT a stereo miking technique.

That's just like the guitar players who hook up a second cabinet to their amp and call it a "stereo" amp rig.... :laughings:
 
Two observations.

1.) Drum tracking for metal is a LOT different than most genres, in that what constitutes a "good metal drum sound" sounds very different from a natural sounding recording of a kit. Most pro metal guys really do close mic everything for a drum kit, for greater control of the panning, dynamic shaping, and EQ of each individual component of a kit.

2.) Doing that is hard as shit to get right - you're playing with a ton of phase relationships between, well, LOTS of mics, slight changes in placement make very big differences, you're still somewhat sensitive to coloration from less-than-ideal rooms, and none of this added flexibility really matters unless you're really good with a compressor and an EQ. Meanwhile, methods like the Recorderman method give great results in less-than-perfect rooms, can be augmented with added close-mics (say, the toms), and really the most important two parts of the kit in a dense metal mix will be your snare and, especially, kick.

Honestly, you're probably better staying with the Recorderman method for the time being (or something similar), as it'll give you great results without giving you quite enough rope to hang yourself.
 
miroslav said:
It's not a matter of *my* definition VS someone else’s...it has to do with audio/acoustic properties. This shit was defined a LONG time ago and is known by many.
Click to expand...

read the OP. do you really think he fully understands those particular audio/acoustic proerties or is just trying to get a good drum sound?

Parkerguy09 said:
Ok, so I read an article in a magazine about recording heavy metal drums, and it says that the overheads are basically there to capture cymbals and that each cymbal should be miked preferably. Right now I have a stereo matched pair of Rodes NT55s placed as overheads, I also have a pair of AKG C 3000 B's not stereo matched, and I'm thinking about using these mics to record the hi-hats and ride cymbal. My question is will this cause "unbearable" phase problems in the mix? Can you use two unmatched mics with a stereo pair when miking cymbals? Any advice would be greatly appreciated thanks.
Click to expand...
 
This is an excellent thread, despite the difference in opinions regarding stereo.

I too am trying to get a decent drum sound, but alas I think that it may require a couple more mics. I have a sure 57 that I like for the snare,and an AKG D112 for the Kick, and I'm thinking I'll need a pair of Sennheiser 421's for overheads. lol Not to mention a good kit with good cymbals being in my future.

I think Drums are THE most gawdawfully difficult instrument to deal with when recording. Everything has it's challenges I suppose, but drums seem 'extra' lethal.

Anyways, some good tips here, thanks!
 
ez_willis said:
okay. have you ever used the recorderman? if so, did you also use a traditional stereo pair for your overheads?
Click to expand...

ez_willis said:
read the OP. do you really think he fully understands those particular audio/acoustic proerties or is just trying to get a good drum sound?
Click to expand...

:D

I'm not sure what any of that has to do the fact that the Recorderman setup is really NOT a stereo miking technique...?

1.) The OP used the phrase "stereo pair"...that's what I read.

2.) You posted the Recorderman video.

3.) I simply made the comment that the Recoderman setup was NOT a stereo pair setup....which it isn't…even if it does work well for tracking drums.


AFA what the OP understands about miking techniques...well, that's for him to state and learn if needed...and looking at the number of folks who seem to think the Recorderman setup IS a stereo miking technique...it might be good for all of them to also learn what is and isn't stereo miking because there are going to be situations where they may want a true stereo recording of a kit (or whatever)...so if they use the Recorderman setup...they won't get it.

AFA as what I use...I use an M/S stereo pair as my OH setup for drums with spot mic on Kick and Snare.


Zombre said:
This is an excellent thread, despite the difference in opinions regarding stereo.
Click to expand...

It really isn't a difference of opinion...it's a fact that the Recorderman setup is not a stereo pair.
I know some folks will just say "who cares if it sounds good"... :) ...but that's not the point, since the OP mentioned "stereo pair".

I really do suggest that people get the Huber "Microphone Techniques" book...as there's a lot of great info there, and those ARE the techniques that are used in studios world wide.
 
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miroslav said:
1.) The OP used the phrase "stereo pair"...that's what I read.

2.) You posted the Recorderman video.

3.) I simply made the comment that the Recoderman setup was NOT a stereo pair setup....which it isn't…even if it does work well for tracking drums.
Click to expand...

read dudes question again:
Parkerguy09 said:
Can you use two unmatched mics with a stereo pair when miking cymbals? Any advice would be greatly appreciated thanks.
Click to expand...

he ain't looking for the truest form of stereo micing technique. he needs to capture the cymbals as well as the rest of the kit with four mics. best way to do that IMO is to use the NON-STEREO IMAGE recordman method combined with a kick and snare mic.

better? :p
 
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