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AlexW
New member
bigwillz24 said:
I'll do this too. Mix on my monitors but occasionally check things out on headphones; basically as a simple check on a different sounding system. I find I can usually get vocals to sit better A/B-ing this way.
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sucram
New member
before i moved into my house, i had the same problem about controlling volume at night, so i used headphones all the time. after trying my hardest to work with a gift-pair of Sennheisers (the fusion 500s i think. super comfortable, but no top end at all), i got the Sony 7506s. much clearer sound, and they're well represented in professional fields if that matters to you. they're always around $100, and while i do find that listening on them makes my ears fatigue much quicker than with speakers, i feel they better represent the music than playing it back at low (i mean really low) levels on my monitors (JBL LSR25s), especially in the bass and low-mid region since that's lacking at full volume on the JBLs (5.25" cone), even before accounting for the fletcher-munson effect.
i agree that headphones are not replacements for speakers, but as long as you understand the drawbacks and as long as you're vigilant about doing A/B comparisons (i have to do that constantly even with my monitors), you can still work with headphones. you can certainly do non-mixing tasks like arranging and tweaking with wreckless abandon. and you'll always need a pair of headphones in any studio at some point for something, so just go get a pair in your price range that you've tried out with reference material you're very familiar with.
good luck,
marcus
i agree that headphones are not replacements for speakers, but as long as you understand the drawbacks and as long as you're vigilant about doing A/B comparisons (i have to do that constantly even with my monitors), you can still work with headphones. you can certainly do non-mixing tasks like arranging and tweaking with wreckless abandon. and you'll always need a pair of headphones in any studio at some point for something, so just go get a pair in your price range that you've tried out with reference material you're very familiar with.
good luck,
marcus
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Mo-Kay
Dragon Soul Productions
I agree with the "'get a brain part"
I'd recommend some eyes with that too...moron.
I'd recommend some eyes with that too...moron.
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ds21
New member
I can mix on headphones (I've had the same pair, AKG 240, for over 10 years) and get an "OK" mix, but then I'll have to tweak it on monitors to really be happy with it, a little EQ, a little level change, but the biggest is reverb/efx, you just can't get the same prespective as the speaker/room playback enviroment with headphones.
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Bianchi Joe
New member
Headphone mixes -- sure, why not?
Well, this will no doubt raise the ire of all the professionals, but the fact is, many of us home recordists simply HAVE to mix, monitor, and master with headphones. It's the reality of having neighbors, kids, and a less-than-pristine recording room. Hell, I bet most of us are using some form of "spare room" or closet anyway, and loud near-field monitors just aren't part of the equation. Welcome to the real world of the hobbyist songwriter! I find that by doing a few test-burns of different headphone mixes and then listening to them on different systems (boom box, car stereo, home stereo), I can pretty easily make adjustments so that the final product sounds good in most environments. And guess what? You have to do that when you mix with monitors, too -- since listeners will rarely find themselves listening to your mix in the rarified air of an acoustically-perfect recording studio. In fact, with the proliferation of mp3 file sharing and iPods, I would wager that a huge percentage of listeners will only hear your music on headphones. So why not mix on them? No, it's not the preferred way to do things, but it's probably the most practical. So never mind the nay-sayers. With patience and experience, you can make great mixes with headphones; it just presents some new challenges -- and that's what makes you a better engineer/producer. I'll now brace myself for the onslaught of angry rebuttals and diatribes.
Well, this will no doubt raise the ire of all the professionals, but the fact is, many of us home recordists simply HAVE to mix, monitor, and master with headphones. It's the reality of having neighbors, kids, and a less-than-pristine recording room. Hell, I bet most of us are using some form of "spare room" or closet anyway, and loud near-field monitors just aren't part of the equation. Welcome to the real world of the hobbyist songwriter! I find that by doing a few test-burns of different headphone mixes and then listening to them on different systems (boom box, car stereo, home stereo), I can pretty easily make adjustments so that the final product sounds good in most environments. And guess what? You have to do that when you mix with monitors, too -- since listeners will rarely find themselves listening to your mix in the rarified air of an acoustically-perfect recording studio. In fact, with the proliferation of mp3 file sharing and iPods, I would wager that a huge percentage of listeners will only hear your music on headphones. So why not mix on them? No, it's not the preferred way to do things, but it's probably the most practical. So never mind the nay-sayers. With patience and experience, you can make great mixes with headphones; it just presents some new challenges -- and that's what makes you a better engineer/producer. I'll now brace myself for the onslaught of angry rebuttals and diatribes.
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philpereira
New member
Well I'm going to take your side on this Bianchi Joe. I know that doing stuff on headphones isn't ideal, but it's all I have and all I can afford to do. Some people have to realize that hobbyists don't always have the resources to put all they can into their hobby. Money has to go to more important things, and it becomes difficult to justify spending a couple hundred bucks on monitors when there are other things to save up for. Now the thing I hope to do once I'm done tracking my songs is to get a kind volunteer who has the equipment to mix the songs for me, basically since I don't have the skills or knowledge to do it on my own at this point (and I'd rather just focus on making music than being a producer). Or, if these people are so opposed to mixing on headphones, they should chip in and buy them for everyone who needs them lol Point is, no one is really going for album of the year anyway, as long as we get servicable results, that's the important thing.
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
I have done rough mixes on headphones and it is definetly not as good as using monitors, but can be a last option if need be. But i do master my tracks on headphones which i know is just plain stupid for the fact that 1. i amnt a mastering engineer and 2. Its really fekin hard to judge the lo and hi end with just headphones.
Blue Bear Sound
New member
I've yet to hear a great mix done on headphones...Bianchi Joe said:
noisedude
New member
There is a technical term for all of you persisting in your fantasies that mixing can be done properly on headphones:
"Feeding the bear"
"Feeding the bear"
Trumpspade
I'M BLESSED.......
Blue Bear Sound said:
I have heard good but not great!
I witnessed it first hand too!
I know the rule of thumb, and I wouldn't have invested in $1800 monitors just for the hell of it. I heard my headphone mixes, and it is pure doo-doo............Hell, my monitor mixes are just now getting better. But my buddies daw and his headphones and his "ears" were compatible to damn good mixes in a experimental project. I wouldn't recommend it and he wouldn't either..........He has the same $1800 monitors because he too swears by monitors. But he has three projects he did mixing with headphones just for the sake of giggles, and you too would be impressed! I would classify it a good mixing, but not Great! and definitely not recommended...........
So I agree with you Blue Bear on your comments and I too have yet to hear great headphone mixes. But do use headphones for other things in reference to your mix, but not for sound tweaking..........very deceptive!
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TheDewd
New member
One can mix with headphones easily...
It is possible to produce great mixes on headphones, if you use GOOD headphones. Some are really flat and have speaker-like soundstaging. I'm not talking about the 7506 or low-end models here, which I would never mix with. I'm talking about open headphones that are diffuse-field equalized to sound like speaker monitors. The Sennheiser HD600 are what I use for mixing and mastering. The HD650 are even better. with more detail. The BeyerDynamic DT880 ain't half bad, but the king of accuracy now seems to be the Sony SA5000. Those headphones are $250 and over, but are worth it.
If you really want to get monitor-like results, you can get a pair of electrostatic headphones, like Stax and the Sennheiser Orpheus. This is expensive stuff, but I guarantee you that this old "simili-fact" that one should not mix with headphones is only the product of people not using good enough headphones for the job.
Remember: A $500 headphone driven by an excellent headphone amp beats the crap of nearly any sub $10k monitor system. The detail is much better and the frequency response is much flatter.
People who say one can't mix on headphones are simply driven by old sayings or are so used to mixing on monitors that they can't translate well on headphones....or are simply using cheap closed headphones.
The argument about everyone hearing headphones differently applies to speakers too. Nobody hears things the same way. When I mix and master, I want things to sound good for ME, not for my bandmates or neighbourgs. Wheter I use flat monitor speakers with flat amps and perfect crossovers with a nice full extension sub OR quality headphones, what sounds good to me WILL sound good to me. No need for a room to be a "common denominator". Furthermore, quality headphones are flatter than anything else up to 20 times the price.
Having that said, I think mixing/mastering on cheap headphones IS crap, but once you get good/flat/accurate headphones and proper amplification, sky's the limit. If you've never heard a GREAT headphone mix, then it's probably because there is not a single GREAT engineer that uses headphones, because the mentality seems to be stuck with using monitors and this has been transmitted to generations of new engineers. Fact is, in 2005 we have quality headphones that rival the best monitor systems for much less $$$ and with less disturbance.
TheDewd
It is possible to produce great mixes on headphones, if you use GOOD headphones. Some are really flat and have speaker-like soundstaging. I'm not talking about the 7506 or low-end models here, which I would never mix with. I'm talking about open headphones that are diffuse-field equalized to sound like speaker monitors. The Sennheiser HD600 are what I use for mixing and mastering. The HD650 are even better. with more detail. The BeyerDynamic DT880 ain't half bad, but the king of accuracy now seems to be the Sony SA5000. Those headphones are $250 and over, but are worth it.
If you really want to get monitor-like results, you can get a pair of electrostatic headphones, like Stax and the Sennheiser Orpheus. This is expensive stuff, but I guarantee you that this old "simili-fact" that one should not mix with headphones is only the product of people not using good enough headphones for the job.
Remember: A $500 headphone driven by an excellent headphone amp beats the crap of nearly any sub $10k monitor system. The detail is much better and the frequency response is much flatter.
People who say one can't mix on headphones are simply driven by old sayings or are so used to mixing on monitors that they can't translate well on headphones....or are simply using cheap closed headphones.
The argument about everyone hearing headphones differently applies to speakers too. Nobody hears things the same way. When I mix and master, I want things to sound good for ME, not for my bandmates or neighbourgs. Wheter I use flat monitor speakers with flat amps and perfect crossovers with a nice full extension sub OR quality headphones, what sounds good to me WILL sound good to me. No need for a room to be a "common denominator". Furthermore, quality headphones are flatter than anything else up to 20 times the price.
Having that said, I think mixing/mastering on cheap headphones IS crap, but once you get good/flat/accurate headphones and proper amplification, sky's the limit. If you've never heard a GREAT headphone mix, then it's probably because there is not a single GREAT engineer that uses headphones, because the mentality seems to be stuck with using monitors and this has been transmitted to generations of new engineers. Fact is, in 2005 we have quality headphones that rival the best monitor systems for much less $$$ and with less disturbance.
TheDewd
bigwillz24
New member
TheDewd said:
Not trying to call you out Dewd but let us hear one of your great mixes done with headphones.
I'm an open minded individual and I say proof is in the pudding.
If your pudding is as good as you say it is I may give it a try.
noisedude
New member
It's hardly possible to create a great mix on cheap monitors, let alone headphones. Bah humbug! 
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TheDewd
New member
bigwillz24 said:
I never said I was a great engineer, much less a "good" engineer at all.
What I said is that it is possible for a good engineer to produce good mixes on high quality headphones. You are trying to derive the subject to my personal competences in mixing. You should provide arguments that hold instead of trying to get some kind of "proof" from me.
EDIT: Keep in mind that monitors and headphones are tools and that the engineer can do anything with any gear if he's proficient. That said, since I'm not a great engineer, I can't provide you a great mix, but if I was one, I could be using headphones with no problems at all. Fact IS that headphones are as suitable for mixing as speakers, whether all those "old-fashioned" guys are saying. (No offense meant, but you guys should try out high quality phones with proper amplification...and then tell me you can't mix on headphones)
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TheDewd
New member
noisedude said:It's hardly possible to create a great mix on cheap monitors, let alone headphones. Bah humbug!
Obviously, you missed the point of my post, or you simply didn't read it. Maybe you've never tried high quality headphones? You could be very surprised at how speaker-like headphones can be.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
I am in the same boat as a few others here. I want monitor speakers...but haven't added them to my set up yet. I live in a flat with concrete floors...pretty bad for recording even...let alone monitoring externally. I use Sennheiser HD497's. They are pretty good. But I would love to mix on monitor speakers.
What do cd's/ albums sound like on decent monitor speakers? Can you hear the imperfections better? Can you really hear what's there?
What do cd's/ albums sound like on decent monitor speakers? Can you hear the imperfections better? Can you really hear what's there?
bigwillz24
New member
TheDewd said:
Then you have no proof to back up your claims.
There are a few "Pros" who have posted in this thread as to not use headphones. Are you saying that they haven't tried to mix in "newer" more exspensive cans?
I'm sure they have; then they relay there information back to us so we don't make the same mistakes.
Like I said before proof is in the pudding and right now I don't see any pudding in Headphones.
Will
noisedude
New member
Buwahahaha!! You're hilarious!!!TheDewd said:
Yeah, you're right. I'm probably just using crap headphones, that would explain it.
What are you talking about, "speaker-like"? What is "speaker-like" about having a pair of speakers clamped over your ears, with no reflections, stereo merging or sense of space?
And where's your damn proof that you're right?
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TheDewd
New member
And you have no proof of the opposite either, except a VERY conservative movement that goes against the use of headphones.bigwillz24 said:Then you have no proof to back up your claims.
They are just being conservative, following what they always used and always believed into. Nothing more. This MYTH has been going on for decades, while engineers don't realize there are headphones that sound A LOT better than most high-end speakers and monitors costing over 10k....still they want to pay more, so it's their loss! LOLbigwillz24 said: