Guitar and Bass collaboration

[STAROWEN]

Hey! I'm new to this whole forum thing but you guys have helped me in the past so I figured I'd rely on you again XD

I play in a 4 piece band that has only one bassist and one guitarist and (as arrogant as it seems) we don't want to get a second guitarist as we feel it would ruin the perfect band dynamic we currently have. So, in order to try and cover for what would be a second guitarist, we need the bass to play a more prominent part of the composition.

I was just wondering if anyone has any tips on writing bass lines that would fill in for the guitar playing a lead part?
Or if anyone has any ideas on how to achieve a bass tone to the extent that it's audible and plays a nearly equal amount of importance to the guitars within the song?

The guitar tone (to aid guidance) is a The Smiths/The Stone Roses type jangly chorus-filled 'Fender' sound.

I trimmed down some songs to attach but it won't let me 'cos I haven't posted enough sorry.

 

[Ujn Hunter]

Not sure why you think you need another guitarist or why you think the bass player isn't playing equally important parts... I'd say having two or more guitarists in a band would be more the exception than the rule, no? Both of those bands you mention only have one guitar player...

 

[rob aylestone]

I can only speak as a bass player. A bass plays the foundation notes of songs. If the bass player plays high on the neck, and starts doing the twiddly bits then they are no longer playing bass, and you lose the foundation that supports the music. Guitars play chords, or melody, or if the player can do it, both - like the classical players who can play chords and the tune at the same time, but only in certain keys and certain styles. What does your bass player think? If my band asked me to do this, I'd not react very well at all. I play bass - the low notes. Twiddly bits up high are not bass. Any three piece has this problem. If you need more fill, you need a player, tracks, or some kind of electronic assistance. Personally, I don't think this is the bass players department.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

My playing has sometimes been described as "lead bass".

You can bring the bass forward more by increasing it's volume in the mid range. This can often be accomplished pretty well with distortion.

In order to make the playing more prominent, I recommend trying to play more melodic lines. Don't ride the tonic, but play some catchy licks.
Interplay with another instrument is a good technique too. Play moving lines either in sync with or opposite from the vocals or guitar.

Keep an eye out for when less is more. Don't overplay. Usually your best licks will be a few well-placed notes rather than "shredding"

 

[DM60]

I think your setup should work fine, but you will have to figure out how to get the bass player to fill in when the guitar player goes off to wank That is how it seems to be done on many bands like the Who, ZZ Top, Queen, they all pulled it off.

Guitar and bass just need to know how to complment each other. Get some thump from the kick.

 

[Gtoboy]

I recommend listening to Presidents of the United States of America for inspiration. A bass part with most of the high end rolled off just playing the root can be coupled with a bridge pickup upper neck part that uses the 3rd 5th and 7th of the root chord to add color(minor,major, natural, harmonic, etc as required). Adding a sus2 or sus4 every now and again is nice also. Basically , staying in the same scale as the root gives you plenty of options, but the triads are the easiest

 

[notCardio]

OK, maybe I missed something here. I'm half blind and it wouldn't be the first time.

You said you have a 4 piece, yet you didn't mention who the fourth piece was. Keyboards? If so, wouldn't this be more the role of the keyboard player?

 

[grimtraveller]

A bass plays the foundation notes of songs. If the bass player plays high on the neck, and starts doing the twiddly bits then they are no longer playing bass, and you lose the foundation that supports the music. Personally, I don't think this is the bass players department

The only reason I disagree with this is because there is a large range of notes on a bass guitar, especially since the advent of the 5 {and 6} string.
I always remember a guy called Anthony Jackson emphasizing once that a bass guitar was a bass guitar. In other words it was a guitar first, but in the bass region. I agree that some bassists overdo it and don't enhance the song by their widdling. That was a sometime thing in jazz fusion in particular {and some prog and psychedelia}, but by the same token there have been loads of bass players that get the balance just right. The bass guitar is a very versatile instrument and in many ways, is the real controller of many, many songs across many genres. It's a skill in getting that balance between foundation and direction setting and leading ~ a bit ~ while also decortaing and providing rhythmic as well as melodic impulse.

In order to make the playing more prominent, I recommend trying to play more melodic lines.
Keep an eye out for when less is more. Don't overplay. Usually your best licks will be a few well-placed notes rather than "shredding"

There can be the odd place to shred in the odd song, but only if the song has the space for it, supports it or calls for it. Though it was a long time ago, Stanley Clarke's 2nd album from 1974 {"Stanley Clarke" ~ the one with the cover where he wears the brown scarf} is a good example of how the bass can be liberated and free, yet not take away from the songs it underpins. And though people may laugh, Paul McCartney's bass parts for the Beatles from 1966 on are an interesting study in melody allied to foundational rhythmic underpinning as is Carol Kaye's bass in some of those songs like "I was made to love her." The bass playing on the Jackson 5ive's early songs aren't even noticed, so strong are the songs. Until you realize that without the bass playing, those songs collapse. And they are so melodic and move about so much, some of them are songs in themselves !
Bass playing has, in my opinion, been so much more flexible and covered so much more ground since its inception than guitar playing. Some players know how to "hide" and not take over while all the while are actually running the show !

 

[rob aylestone]

Paul McCartney and Carol Kaye I rather like. Carol Kaye, in particular, being an equally good guitarist rarely played clever stuff up high. Clearly she could, but rarely did. The bass guitar for me means a stringed instrument that plays the lower parts. Of course they can play in the high register, but there are usually others who can do this more appropriately on their instrument. When the bass does it, it cannot do it's primary function - to play down the bottom. When I was teaching music in college, quite a few bass players would play high and even play chords. They could even play better than me - and a number are pro players, who sometimes use me as a dip, which I find quite funny - but I stick with the bottom end. In the band, I have one song where I'm up high on the neck for three bits on the G string on my 5 string. I HATE it up there, but at this point in the song I'm the only one who can take the line. I'm always glad when I go back down and do what I consider to be my function - playing bass notes. The guitarist can do all the fancy twiddly bits - not my job. As soon as my notes creep up to the treble clef, I feel like I'm sacrificing what I'm there for!

Clearly loads of people love playing high - that's fine and not remotely 'wrong'. Just not for me.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

You said you have a 4 piece, yet you didn't mention who the fourth piece was. Keyboards? If so, wouldn't this be more the role of the keyboard player?

Yes, I was just going to say this.


Rob is absolutely correct. It is like the bass player is cheating himself coming out of the pocket. Keep bass cool low and deep. Now with proliferation of subwoofer,s in cosumer audio systems I even add in a subsonic isolated bass. To try and get it to thump.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

There can be the odd place to shred in the odd song,

Oh, absolutely. Not usually my jam, but I recognize that there are some great bass shredders out there

Yes, I was just going to say this.


Rob is absolutely correct. It is like the bass player is cheating himself coming out of the pocket. Keep bass cool low and deep. Now with proliferation of subwoofer,s in cosumer audio systems I even add in a subsonic isolated bass. To get it to thump.

The conventional wisdom is that the first 5 frets are where the bassist gets paid.

But if you really want to do something creative and new and exciting, you're gonna have to leave the pocket. Get paid for the first five, make art with the rest.

 

[grimtraveller]

Of course they can play in the high register, but there are usually others who can do this more appropriately on their instrument.

I agree. In general. But music is unpredictable and one of the beauties of the way human music has developed over the ages is the way in which many different instruments have been created, lots of which have overlapping registers, yet there is a place for all of them. They run parallel, they run apart, they run together, they run in counterpoint. The highest notes on the bass are higher than the lowest notes on the guitar yet, the sound of the bass guitar, for the most part, is unmistakably the sound of the bass guitar, notwithstanding, there are so many different tones to the bass guitar.

When the bass does it, it cannot do it's primary function - to play down the bottom

No one can justifiably deny that the bass guitar's primary function is to be down the bottom ~ that's why it's a bass and why simply doing the bass notes on a guitar, though possibly working on the odd song now and then, is, in my opinion, a poor substitute. I've done it with an acoustic, and I made it work but it was deliberately experimental and if I was required to do it as a regular thing, I'd politely decline.

I HATE it up there, but at this point in the song I'm the only one who can take the line

That for me is significant ~ sometimes, the bass heads to the high places because for that moment, in that point in the song, it's appropriate to do so. When one appreciates the entire scale of the bass and plays in a more melodic way, going up high, going down low and plundering the middle are part of the armoury, but ~ and it's an important but ~ are always servants to the song.
The bass guitar, unlike for example, pianos, organs and guitars, makes a great servant but a poor master.

the bass player is cheating himself coming out of the pocket. Keep bass cool low and deep

I think this is possibly genre and particularly song/arrangement, dependent. The bass is cool and low and deep. But the piano and the synth can go lower than the bass.
For me the bass guitar is such a versatile and varied instrument, not just functionally, but sonically too. A double bass, piano and synth can go exactly where the bass guitar can go, but sonically and in terms of dynamism, none of them sound like the bass guitar so its place in a song is as more than just a carrier of low notes.

The conventional wisdom is that the first 5 frets are where the bassist gets paid.

I wouldn't argue with that. On a purely logical basis {no pun intented} that makes sense.

But if you really want to do something creative and new and exciting, you're gonna have to leave the pocket. Get paid for the first five, make art with the rest

But I also agree with that. Wholeheartedly. One doesn't have to overdo it in order to make use of the entire range of the instrument. For me the higher notes are like the fridge. I have the freedom to go there as and when but I'm not going to open it every minute just because it's there. I don't need a cold drink and some mushrooms all day every day.

 

[rob aylestone]

I thought about one word from above - melodious. Then it clicked. I don't think bass should play melodies - as in the tune! That's it. I hate it when the bass becomes the focus, and takes the lead. Not thought about that before. It's also perhaps why I'm uncomfy with some songs when the bass plays low too.

 

[gecko zzed]

I don't think bass should play melodies - as in the tune! That's it. I hate it when the bass becomes the focus, and takes the lead.

Conversely, I think it is great when the bass takes the lead, but it does need to be complementary to and integrated into the melodic structure of the the track. Much of the instrumental work I do has layers of music parts that interweave and overlap, where that interweaving includes typical melody instruments as well as the less common.

 

[VomitHatSteve]

For me the higher notes are like the fridge. I have the freedom to go there as and when but I'm not going to open it every minute just because it's there. I don't need a cold drink and some mushrooms all day every day.

That... is a weird simile. Ha ha!

I thought about one word from above - melodious. Then it clicked. I don't think bass should play melodies - as in the tune! That's it. I hate it when the bass becomes the focus, and takes the lead. Not thought about that before. It's also perhaps why I'm uncomfy with some songs when the bass plays low too.

Ooh! I fundamentally disagree with that! I don't think we can reach a consensus on that point

Conversely, I think it is great when the bass takes the lead, but it does need to be complementary to and integrated into the melodic structure of the the track. Much of the instrumental work I do has layers of music parts that interweave and overlap, where that interweaving includes typical melody instruments as well as the less common.

Exactly!

 

[notCardio]

I'll admit, I haven't read ALL of this thread (ADHD), but I think it depends on the music. There's a huge difference between Motown and prog, both of which I love. Anybody tells me that Chris Squire was too 'noodley', them's fightin' words!

 

[grimtraveller]

I thought about one word from above - melodious. Then it clicked. I don't think bass should play melodies - as in the tune! That's it. I hate it when the bass becomes the focus, and takes the lead. Not thought about that before

The funny thing about the bass taking the melody or, as Gekko put it

it does need to be complementary to and integrated into the melodic structure of the the track. Much of the instrumental work I do has layers of music parts that interweave and overlap

is that except in the more funkster type of song, the bass isn't actually the focus. It's central to what one is hearing and if you took it away, the melodic power would just pppfff down the tubes. But it's not the bass one is focusing on to the exclusion of all else. It might be for bass players, but I think most instrumentalists have that innate ability to hear whatever music they're listening to on several levels at once, like one can enjoy a song in its totality while focusing on what one or two or three instruments or voices are doing.
A funny story. When I first bought a bass guitar, I had no idea how to play it or tune it. So I tuned it vaguely to what I remembered of the cello some 6 years previous {it later turns out to be miles from that, but whatever....}. Initially, I wanted to play the songs that I dug and the first one I had a go at was "Rain" by Status Quo. It was such a bang on the head for me when I worked out the riff, the verses etc. It was 8 years later that I was listening to Quo's live version that had inspired me to learn it when I realized that Alan Lancaster was a pretty basic player and he only used a couple of notes during the riff. Whereas, I'd played the whole riff ! But it informed the entire way that I learned to play. I wrote loads of songs on the bass and the bass parts were the song to me. I've never been a flashy widdly type bassist and I don't slaptwang {although I appreciate both where I feel they're appropriate} but I have always been a melodic one as well as being off the wall when the occasion dictates. As I've gotten older, I've actually utilized a stripped down approach on some songs and I feel quite versatile. But getting "Rain" wrong was marvelous for me. It led me to be the player I've been all these years.
A lot of the way I play guitar came from the bass, actually. It was taking what I would do on bass and finding a way to approximate that onto guitar in a way that was 'guitar~y.' I'm ever so limited as a guitarist but I think interesting too, as a result.

It's also perhaps why I'm uncomfy with some songs when the bass plays low too.

You've lost me there. Earlier, you said

If my band asked me to do this, I'd not react very well at all. I play bass - the low notes

~ I'm not quite getting what you mean.

 

[rob aylestone]

I meant that some of the low bass parts often seem to drift into melody and become a focus point. The topic made me think too about when basses play high and it doesn't feel wrong to me. An old one that comes to mind is Stevie Wonder's Sir Duke - the unison riff that goes higher and higher just feels right, but other songs just seem to use high bass for the wrong reason.

One of my ex-students, a cracking bass player and he's been with Gloria Gaynor for a long time now, was always keen on the high up noodling and wobbly fifths played high up the neck. He did it really well too, but just not for my taste. I went to see a new swing type show he's doing - and full of swing and rat pack stuff, and had a great time until it got to 'Fever', when the electric DB he was playing extended the bum, bum, bum motif upwards. Enjoyed the night - hated that song. Did a bit of research and discovered it was in fact, a 100% faithful part from Michael Buble's version. So not something invented by my friend, but the real part. I'm probably just set in my ways about bass parts - and as I've played Fever so many times the change just doesn't sit well with me. However, Buble and his arrangers are wildly good and successful, so I happily admit it's me. They also tinkered with one of the low notes, giving a different feel. Assuming you start in Am, the well known bass line runs
A,C,A,C,A,E then down to Ab, then back to the A, but in the Buble version the Ab is replaced by a low G - but after the first three notes of the motif, it zooms up to a higher (not really that high, I suppose) twiddly bit.

I know I'm wrong, and old fashioned and unwilling to move with the times, but I just hate it!

 

[gecko zzed]

For interest, here is Raine & Wageman's arrangement of Pour Mon Coeur, in which the violin starts off, then the bass takes over the lead before the whole thing shifts into minor and the bass becomes more, well, bass-ish.

Pour mon Coeur by Raine & Wageman | ReverbNation

The tune comes from the 19th century, with composer unknown. However, it's most commonly to be found in books of tunes for beginner violinists (though not with the shift to minor).

 

[Chili]

As a bass player in two bands, I never sit on the root note all night long. I get soooooo much mileage out of the major pentatonic scale. The nice thing about pentatonics is you can get creative without "cluttering" up a song. A good player can provide counter movement to the lead guitar without overplaying his part. His first and foremost job is to hold down the bottom end, but he can get feet tapping with judicial use of riffs.

As for bass tone, you about to stomp on sacred ground. Let the bass player figure out where he fits in the mix of the band. One note though: it is not the same as when playing solo. The trick there is during rehearsal, set the amps near the drummer and the guitar and bass player go to the other side of the room. You want to hear what the audience would hear and you can't do that if you're next to your guitar amp and he is next to his bass amp. (We don't care about the drummer!!)