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Wow. Which model(s)? If you have 81s or 73s that don't hum at all, you may be the first to post here. :)

I've got 73's, 84's and 81's. As far as problems, you'll rarely hear about the people who have NO problems, but much about those who DO have problems. It's just our nature I think. I tend to track with little EQ as I'll swap or re-position mics first, so the EQ issues have been nominal to me. That said, I've used the EQ a few times (usually at the less offending frequencies) and never noticed the hum. Still, there are some issues. I have not done the transformer re-orientation trick yet, but with no signal passing thru the pre/eq, I can definately hear the hum. But again, I bought them primarily for the Pre's, so I'm not bummed even if the EQ never works. Brad McGowan has a very good band-aid if it works out that the problem is not easily fixed. Like I said, until you have your units, try not to stress out. Anyone who wants to sell their 84's or 73's can PM me as I'd like a couple more and I have several people who have used or heard about them that want some!! :D:D
 
Further analysis on the hum:

I'm definitely seeing some oscillation in the preamp circuit. Replacing the transistors probably will fix the problem, but I'm not entirely convinced that this amplifier circuit oscillation is inherent with the parts chosen. I'm seeing too many obvious problems with the board layout to jump to that conclusion—places where they could easily have dropped in an additional star grounding via a case screw but didn't bother to do so, for example.

I'm also seeing ground traces that are no bigger than the V+ and signal traces. They really should be. On a board like this, I would have expected every board to have a ground plane. That means a double-sided board in which one entire side is a giant ground trace, with every screw passing through a plated through hole connected to that plane. Sure, that ground plane might have the occasional V+ trace running up through it, with gaps around components where the leads go through—maybe the occasional extra trace where jumper might be used with a one-sided board—but otherwise, pretty much a solid copper ground plane on the entire face of the board.

When I looked at this board and didn't see any traces wider than about an eighth of an inch, I quickly became concerned. On further analysis, the entire 24V ground bus for the circuit is only grounded on one end, and that's the end closest to the humming toroidal monstrosity. Having more than a foot of ground between one end of the circuit with a trace width of 1/8" means you're probably between 0.05 and .1 ohms of resistance, depending on how thick the traces are. (No, I'm not going to measure them.) When you're dealing with circuits in the presence of that much EM, even that tiny little bit of resistance counts. A lot.

Needless to say, this is a big reason that the circuits are oscillating. When circuits like this oscillate, what's happening is that some of the output (which contains 60 Hz hum) is bleeding into the voltage lines for whatever reason. The result is that the signal below some frequency is getting boosted massively---equivalent to the maximum gain for the transistor (as opposed to a controlled feedback loop with a resistor in it). Now all the boards have capacitors on the voltage lines to cut down on this, but they need an excellent ground for this to work.

So as a ten second test to see if the grounds suck, I tried hooking up a .47 uF capacitor temporarily across the +24 and 24V ground connections on the right end of the rightmost jumper board. It didn't do anything. Then I tried the same thing, only using a wire wrapped around a case screw for the minus side and the hum dropped in half. So basically whoever did the board layout on this thing screwed up. There simply should not be that big a difference in ground potential between two electrically adjacent boards.

Grounding the foot-long ground bus between the upper and treble boards made the biggest difference. By itself, this cut the hum fairly dramatically. Soldering a capacitor at the right end of the right jumper board between the +24V and the 24V ground and a grounding wire between the 24V ground and a case screw knocked it down further. At this point, with proper cable placement, I'm at probably about a tenth the hum. It's still humming, but the level is close to that of the 73s. Getting closer.

Now that I'm starting to recover from the massive sinus/ear infection that had me up to a 103 degree fever yesterday—I'm now on a 10-day round of Cipro—I'm going to experiment by adding grounds at additional points in the circuit. We'll see what happens. My gut says I should probably just go ahead and solder grounds to the minus side of each of those decoupling caps (e.g. 6C6/6C25) and wire them to ground lugs under the screw heads with heavy gauge wire now that I know there's a problem with those grounds.

One more discrepancy in the schematic. The part 6C41 exists on the board, but does not exist on the schematic. It's a resistor (I can't be bothered trying to make out the color codes) between the return and junction of the - side of 6C5/6R32/6R35/6R31.
 
dur the noise virtually disappeared when i put the preamp far away from any power sources....

kinda sucks but it works.
 
My gut says I should probably just go ahead and solder grounds to the minus side of each of those decoupling caps (e.g. 6C6/6C25) and wire them to ground lugs under the screw heads with heavy gauge wire now that I know there's a problem with those grounds.
I think I'm gonna go with your gut on this :D (when I get the units open again - prolly next weekend)

One thing I meant to check but forgot to when I had the units open was the grounding of XLR pin 1 on the inputs and output - does it go straight to the chassis? It's supposed to, right?
 
I'm definitely seeing some oscillation in the preamp circuit. Replacing the transistors probably will fix the problem, but I'm not entirely convinced that this amplifier circuit oscillation is inherent with the parts chosen. I'm seeing too many obvious problems with the board layout to jump to that conclusion—places where they could easily have dropped in an additional star grounding via a case screw but didn't bother to do so, for example.

I was going to say earlier, although we all talk about hum, oscillation often manifests itself as hum in the audible range (as I'm sure you probably know already) as well as motorboating and weird swooshy noises!

Looking at how the boards are hooked together with those jumper boards, would it be feasible to lift the ground at each board and attach a star-ground return from each board? Alternatively, if the ground traces are simple, a ground bar could be soldered on as a wire to the trace to reduce resistance.

Cap decoupling on the supply seems like a good idea. I'd see how local you could get them to the opamp sections to filter best. It might be worth trying a small film too - eg. 100n.

The one last thing that I'll add is just to check over the chassis earthing post (or however it is attached). I've seen Chinese designs where they have failed to remove lacquer from transformer mounts and chassis where a star ground is made. This included the safety earth too! No idea how it made it into the country being that unsafe (sadly lots of people own this piece of kit too).

Thanks again for documenting your work,

Roddy
 
But again, I bought them primarily for the Pre's, so I'm not bummed even if the EQ never works. :D:D
C'mon - that's like saying I bought a car, but I can't drive it at night because the lights don't work.

Most of us bought the 81's for their EQ capability. Without that, it's lost a great part of its functionality.
 
I didn't get much done on this over the weekend. Found my scope, but had to repair it. And only one probe works.

But on the 81 I was working on, the waveform is complex, so it's definitely oscillation, and in this case the majority of it was localized to board #5.

Good work dgatwood - a little more time and you'll have this figured out for the rest of us. :)
 
Maybe the truth would put the fire out.
When did the truth ever do anything but fan the flames around this place?:p
I can't speak for Chance, but if he's anything like me, I'm sure he'd appreciate it then if you PM'd alan directly. We've all been down the path several times and I don't think any of us particularly care to go back. Then, if there's anything you think we all should know, feel free to share.....

I for one am sick and tired of the "altruism" of a few members of this group (not yourself) who try to convince the world of the good will of other manufacturers (who shall remain nameless) towards this particular GB.

Altruism and good will are misunderstandings of what those people are trying to communicate.

If I ran a bar and I saw a guy peddling undrinkably foul coffee on the street to unsuspecting passers-by who thought they were getting a bargain beverage, and I knew it was foul because I'd not only tried some myself when considering adding coffee to my menu before sending it back but paid for some extra milk and sugar to try and make it taste better, but decided that wasn't worth the hassle, and then I happened to see someone go up to him and get drawn in by his low low prices and allegedly tasty caffeinergy sauce, I'd probably step in and warn them off. I might even try and explain why I know his coffee was so rancid. As long as I didn't try to sell him a pint of beer instead, I'd think I was doing the right thing, and who the hell is this guy making money off of innocent bargain hunters while I pay for rent and heating for my premises anyway?

And if the people who play darts in my bar happened to be listening and were to step in and say "you should listen to this guy, he has good taste in liquids", I'd think the person who almost bought the coffee was pretty lucky to have had such good advice in avoiding the horrible brown swill.

That's how I'd look at it, anyway. :)
 
Digging through my parts box, I found a supply of 100 ohm 1W resistors that are surplus . . . you can use two of them to replace that 47 ohm 1/2W resistor, that gives you 50 ohm 2W. Shoot me an email with your address and how many you need and I'll mail them to you :)
 
I've got 2 x 81s and I just bought the last 7 BC441s (ordered 8 so I expect they'll back order them). Hopefully they will stock more soon. Bought 2 watt resistors as well. I figure, as long as I'm in there, I may as well replace those as well. The resistors are cheap so I bought enough for my 4 x 84s as well, although I might wait before I start dinking around with those. I haven't had time to test any of them yet, aside from seeing whether they simply power up and that all the LEDs appear to work. I'm in no rush so I may also wait to see what Chance wants to do about getting any of these units fixed before I start messing with them in earnest. I'm underwater at work and then off to Hawaii for a week, so it might be awhile before I can get to them anyway.

FYI. For those looking for BC441s, Newark just confirmed my order with an expected ship date for all 8 units of January 22. So it appears that they expect to get more of them by then.
 
I run about a 3% initial failure rate on testing :o but my warranty claims rate is about one-tenth of that . . .

That would be because you actually do testing.

I'm not surprised by 3%. I'd expect a bit higher failure rates in smaller runs just because of random human mistakes (dropping a board on its way from one machine to another, for example). When Chance said that they had seen 54% failure rate in one manufacturing batch, that may be a world record even for prototypes. :D
 
I was going to say earlier, although we all talk about hum, oscillation often manifests itself as hum in the audible range (as I'm sure you probably know already) as well as motorboating and weird swooshy noises!

Had a lot of all of that before. Now, it's pretty negligible except a swoosh as the thing warms up. Probably one board still oscillating at this point.


Looking at how the boards are hooked together with those jumper boards, would it be feasible to lift the ground at each board and attach a star-ground return from each board?

Trivial. Just slice the second trace from the bottom on each of the jumper boards and you'll split the grounds. I'm not sure how much benefit there would be to lifting the grounds, though. The benefit comes from connecting from a ground that looks like an antenna (straight line wire) to one that looks like a plane (the case) as quickly as possible.


Alternatively, if the ground traces are simple, a ground bar could be soldered on as a wire to the trace to reduce resistance.

Cap decoupling on the supply seems like a good idea. I'd see how local you could get them to the opamp sections to filter best. It might be worth trying a small film too - eg. 100n.

Not a bad idea; I'm just using these electrolytics because I have bags of the things lying around already. Just to clarify, there are already decoupling caps on each board. Their ground reference just apparently isn't quite adequate.


The one last thing that I'll add is just to check over the chassis earthing post (or however it is attached). I've seen Chinese designs where they have failed to remove lacquer from transformer mounts and chassis where a star ground is made. This included the safety earth too! No idea how it made it into the country being that unsafe (sadly lots of people own this piece of kit too).

The power supply board is grounded by a bunch of lugs wrapped around a screw that goes into a threaded copper block that is somehow secured to the case. Seems solid enough to me. About the only complaint I have on that is that the screw isn't long enough for all four lugs. I don't know how the heck they got that to work at the factory; I can't get the threads to catch, so I ended up moving one of the ground lugs (I hope I picked the 12V lug, but I don't remember for sure) to a different screw.
 
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C'mon - that's like saying I bought a car, but I can't drive it at night because the lights don't work.

Most of us bought the 81's for their EQ capability. Without that, it's lost a great part of its functionality.

Understood, but if you only drive days, it doesn't matter that much does it? I'm not suggesting that we don't try to make the EQ's work. Just that I haven't needed them for my applications as of late.
 
Understood, but if you only drive days, it doesn't matter that much does it? I'm not suggesting that we don't try to make the EQ's work. Just that I haven't needed them for my applications as of late.
i guess you're a little

obtuse


most of us need cars

we can drive at night too

and we expect the lights to work

when we pay for them
 
We've all been down the path several times and I don't think any of us particularly care to go back.

I think it's most wise to speak for oneself :p

If there's one thing I learned from this group buy it's how dedicated some board members can be to a cause. While dedication can be admirable in many cases there's also a point at which it can become blind and a few folks here definitely crossed over into that IMO.

Someone suggested at one point (not you Bill) that anyone who wanted to get down to the bottom of things regarding the group buy be denied further participation in this group buy or future buys. I've noticed since then, now that we've seen a few of the things Hyatt (who I'm personally not a big fan of based on his style of smarmy communication) said come true, those folks are nowhere to be seen.

I hope each of us on this board come away from this experience with a more accepting attitude towards others and an open mind. :)
 
C'mon - that's like saying I bought a car, but I can't drive it at night because the lights don't work.

Most of us bought the 81's for their EQ capability. Without that, it's lost a great part of its functionality.

tbh im planning on buying an 81 that i already know has a hum problem because i dont give a crap... i just want the pres.
 
tbh im planning on buying an 81 that i already know has a hum problem because i dont give a crap... i just want the pres.
that's easy to say

looking through the

retrospectoscope



i'd guess most people

who just wanted the pres

and didn't need the eq

ordered the 73 or the 84


those who ordered the 81

did so because of the eq

and now find it to be

(temporarily i hope) unusable
 
The answer is obviously 11 ACMPs! The EMI will help signal nearby airplanes for rescue! And every couple of days, one will catch on fire to keep you warm. When it burns out, you can use it to break open coconuts :D
:D -- there's a risk the EMI will mess up the instrumentation in passing planes, but then you can have some company.
 
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