grateful dead questions

[lesterpaul]

i have to admit i'm not a big theory guy but i was wondering what scales did garcia play, he has a distinctive sound and phrasing on some songs that i would like to incorporate and i notice these same scales in other players that i'm just finding out about in the last few months like Jimmy Herring ,who also is taking his spot in The Dead, in case you didn't know the remaining members are reforming as "The Dead".....i notice Trey Anastasio uses these same scales or varieties of them .....also as a side note how do ya'll feel about these guys in general, i never see much about jam bands in here ,like i said earlier i've been getting into the jam band scene lately, some things i really dig and others i just, well i don't know .....thanks in advance ...later

 

[AlChuck]

Most of what I've heard in JG's playing is Dorian mode (minor scale with flat 7, flat 3rd) and Ionian mode (major scale).

 

[powderfinger]

he also uses quite a bit of the mixolidian mode....for a major, but not-so-major sound

 

[ZoSo58LP]

but al, I thought dorian was ONLY raised 6th (aka flat 7th) of the 2nd note in the key youre in?

 

[AlChuck]

No, Dorian is a minor scale with a flat third and flat seventh; it has a natural sixth.

For example,

C major scale: C D E F G A B C
C Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C (same notes as in the Bb major scale)

It's also got the same notes as the widely-used minor pentatonic scale with the addition of the 2nd (9th) and natural sixth.

 

[c7sus]

He played with heroin a lot, too..........

I know diddly about theory, but as far as Jerry's timing..........

I read Jerry's "favorite" time trick was to play 5 notes in the space of 4, so that over a few measures he became slightly out of sync with the "One" beat.

Also, the only hard/fast rule of the Dead in any incarnation has always been that one IS ONE!

Another trick of Jerrys was to play the melody straight the first time through. Then, he would deconstruct and sometimes play the melodies backwards or even sideways. Many times his single-and-double note solos built to crescendos of chords.

Best example of this on record is "Morning Dew" from Europe 72.

Also, Jerry used analog echo A LOT and also dug using a very wet reverb sound. The Wolf, Tiger, Top Hat, etc, were all fitted with high-gain buffer amplifiers activated by Bourns push/pull knobs for that super-distorted sound like at the end of "Deal".

Like I said, I know dick about theory. What I do know I learned from watching and listening. I saw the Dead about 250 times and Jerry's band probably 50 times at least. If you study the Garcia's songbook you begin to realize that a lot of Jerry's tunes were based on simple, repetitive lines. If you don't get it this time, don't worry because it's coming around again. There's a helluva lot of bluegrass in Jerry's music, and to me Jerry was ultimately a blues player. He learned jazz chops from Merle Saunders, and would practice weird little runs that Merle had shown him or dropped in a jam and the next time Jerry saw Merle he would have it down pat.

Listen to "Crazy Fingers", "Brokedown Palace", and "Attics of my Life" for examples of what a melodic genius Jerry really was. The lyric of Crazy Fingers is almost Haiku, also the chorus of "Ripple" just misses being a perfect Hailu poem.

Another quick note---- Jerry was once asked how much influence he had on Hunter's lyrics. Jerry response was something along the lines of replacing consonants with vowels, because you can't sustain a consonant!!!

Jimmy Herring is doing one helluva job right now. Probably the biggest shoes in the biz to try and fill, in front of an audience that is at once forgiving and very demanding. Vince Welnick learned that lesson trying to take Brent's seat in 1990. If you're interested in hearing what the Dead can do, and I think Phil & Friends actually did it a couple orders of magnitude better, check out this site:

www.furthurnet.org

Or drop me a PM with your address and I'll send you some CD's of Phil, TOO, and Govt Mule that will blow your mind!

 

[jdier]

try this

http://www.guitarworld.com/lessons/artists/2002/0402.betts.html

 

[lesterpaul]

yeah i dig .....

lesh and friends have th new album ..are there others and i can't say enough cool things about th MULE ...what intrigues me most about garcia and trey is th fullness of their tone ,i know they say it comes from th player but man ,i mean i don't care what they play its just th way they get that real full sound ...i need tone lessons ...peace

 

[c7sus]

Jerry used a lot of vibrato with his touch. I think he was really crushing the neck, too. Also, keep in mind that a lot of Jerry's live sound was a pair of blackface Twin heads through a Mac amp.

Jerry preferred very stiff picks, too. He said it was like playing with a stick.

For a pretty good look into Jerry's rig and tone check out a Yahoo club called Grateful Jams. There's a lot of good stuff there about Doug Irwin and Stephen Cripes too. they have schematics of Jerry's wiring scheme, which he came up with, BTW.

Jerry's idea was to take the signal straight off the pickups, route it down a stereo cable through his FX loop, then feed it back into the guitar to the volume and tone controls, and back out again into his amps.

 

[c7sus]

Phils record came out pretty good, but it really doesn't do that band justice, IMHO.

When they play live they can switch their mics off the house and still talk to each other. Phil can say "Change to C#m on 4" and count it down and the whole band turns on a dime. They make it all look so seamless and easy but all of those guys have great ears and if you get into their "bootleg" recordings you can hear them dropping snippets here and there. One show I have of P&F in Denver has Warren lining out "Leaving On A Jet Plane" in the middle of a jam. The 5/28/02 show at the Hult in Eugene has Rob dropping "Hell In A Bucket" during "Mason's Children". 11/23/01 at the Orpheum in Boston is HIGHLY recommended!!!!!

The best Mule show I have been able to find so far is 10/15/02 at the Majestic Theatre in Detroit. I'm still looking for 5/19/02 at the Moore in Seattle............. Red House, EC's Little Wing.

 

[TexRoadkill]

For a bunch of old stoners the Dead really had a handle on the technology of live playing. They even had individual monitor mixers so they could do their own mixes. Their concerts changed the way I thought live sound had to be. It was amazing how they could have a full and rich sound that you could still talk over.

 

[jdier]

OK, This really started to bug me so I pulled out a couple dead albums and a guitar and tried to figure something out.

Here is what I think the original poster was trying to get at.

First off, I need to know that you know the pentatonic (or by proper name: minor pentatonic) scale which is a simplfied version of the blues scale or the minor 7 (which he Al chuck is calling Dorian.)

Blues Scale is:
R, b3rd, 4th, #4th, 5th, b7th, R
Blues Scale in C:
C, Eb, F, F#, G, Bb, C.

Dorian is:
R, 2nd, b3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th,b7th, R
Dorian in C:
C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C

Minor Pentatonic is blues minus the #4, or Minor minus 2nd and 6th.

R, b3rd, 4th, 5th, b7th, R
in C:
C, Eb, F, G, Bb, C.

I am not a guitarist, so bear with me. I think all guitarists know this scale.

OK, I am long winded.... I know, but hang in there, I am just getting to the good part.

So, you find a song and determine the key it is in. For instance Sugar Magnolia is in A (to start.) Now, you use the scale I describe above, but instead of using it in A, use it in B over the A. What I mean is that while the band is playing in A, you start soloing using the scale above using B as the root.

Illustrated:
B, D, E, F#, A, B

Now, when the song does not have too many chord changes or major modulations you are ok. But, look at Ripple where the chords go from G to D (I think) and this does not work perfectly.

Worse than that is modulation like in Ophelia by The Band. Forget it. I mean you can make it work, but as the chords modulate up from root to 3rd to 4th there will just be a bunch of notes in the scale which are clams. If you can slide it up, or perhaps switch to a major scale with the correct root as it moves to the 3rd, you might be ok.

Well, This might be enough to get you started. Lester Paul, you better try this out and let me know if I am thinking of the same sound you are. If not, give me an example from a studio album solo and I will try again.

Hope this helps.

Jim

 

[jdier]

The best Mule show I have been able to find so far is 10/15/02 at the Majestic Theatre in Detroit. I'm still looking for 5/19/02 at the Moore in Seattle............. Red House, EC's Little Wing.

What is EC little wing? Isn't little wing, hendrix?

 

[c7sus]

Sure, Little Wing is Hendrix, but EC did a different arrangement than Jimi.

 

[lesterpaul]

well so far ......

i know i sound dumb maybe lazy even but i know where and when to play most solo's i improvise alot but i know i need to learn more scales because even tho th guys in th band don't say it i feel i have my patent licks and i tend to overuse them,that said what i have been practicing is and believe me i think its what you're all talking about in sorta th same form is kinda back,where you ten backwards from th pentatonic scale at least when i'm playing on th high strings what i mean

E-----3----5-6
B-----3----5-6
G-----3----5----
this is what i have been practicing that i think is where garcia may playedto me it sounds close
E-----3-4---6
B-----3-4---6
G-----3-5
i know this isn't technical but do ya'll see where i'm comin from ....thanks guys .....and th Clapton version of little wing flew right past me never knew there was one ......peace

 

[mrface2112]

anything warren touches

turns to gold

phil and friends is a far better band than "the dead". i mean, you trade off warren haynes and john molo for bob weir, the dead's drummers and an extra keyboardist. bad trade. the beauty of phil and friends was warren and jimmy trading licks, as well as their turning on a dime. warren makes em get mean. i never liked the dead much until i heard phil and friends.....my first phil and friends show was actually with warren and derek trucks, when they opened for dylan in baltimore.

read on the mule website that warren and matt had settled on a permanent bass player, but they won't announce it until sept. i'm wondering if it's dave schools from widespread panic. he was the best fit of any of the bass players i've heard with the mule post-woody.

speaking of woody, c-sus do you have his last show? 8.19.00? HUGE southern man in there. i've got a sbd of it if you're interested. also of note are 3.10.00 (from the 930 club in DC) with a monster 21st Century Schizoid Man-> We're Not Gonna Take It (the who)-> Since I've Been Loving You, and my last woody show, 2.26.00 (charlottesville, va) with a Kind of Bird as well as a Little Wing -> Left Coast Groovies->Pass the Peas combo that's quite tasty. lemme know if you're interested in any of those.


wade

 

[lotuscent]

The Clapton version was with Derek and the Dominoes.

I hear lots of mixolydian in Jerry's playing. It's a major scale with a flat 7. sometimes called a dominant 7th scale. Play a dom 7th arpeggio and add a 2, 4, and 6 (all natural) and there it is. He liked to slip chramtically through it a lot. it is useful to start with the arp first, because those are the money notes.

Have any of you listened to the new Allman Bros with Warren and Derek Trucks? I must say, I think it's their best stuff in years...

 

[fonts]

...I always thought Garcia sounded a bit sloppy to my ears...of course I wasn't roasted on acid all the time either...

 

[dtb]

and don't overlook JG's work with David Grisman as well as the "pizza tapes" with David and Tony Rice. Talking about laid back.

 

[fonts]

Sure, Little Wing is Hendrix, but EC did a different arrangement than Jimi.

...I like D&Ds version better...