Grace 101-Getting the Cleanest Signal

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Hurmph

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Hello All,
First off I'd Like to thank everybody here in this forum for all their wonderful advice. I was in the midst of building a small personal studio and many of your posts were invaluable. Granted, I am now a lot poorer, but all for the greater good.
Sooooo....
After a year of lurking, I have come with the following:
Mackie 1402 VLZ
MOTU 828 mkII
Grace 101
Berhringer composer pro
BBE 362
Lexicon mpx 100
Oktava mk 012 x 2
AT 4033
Shure SM57
Rode NT2 (In the process of Buying)

Running Audiodesk on a Powerbook G3

I just recieved the 101 today and was running experiments to find the cleanest signal possible. Suprisingly the MOTU 828 pres held up pretty well. Test was done with a telecaster running direct. So the tests resulted in the following:
Best to worst:
1.Grace to 828 XLR pre to Comp
2.828 1/4 pre to Comp
3.Grace to 828 1/4 Balanced input to Comp
4.Mackie to 828 1/4 Balanced input to Comp

Am I doing something wrong? The clearest input is going through 2 pres?
Does the 828 balanced input degrade the signal that much?
Something seems very wrong...
Anyone have experince with these components?

Thanks in Advance.

Also if there is something I am missing please tell, I have a severe case of G.A.S. right now.

Here's to a good year.
 
Hey Hurmph..get off teh GAS, I know its hard.
Use the Grace into your 828 line input, do not use the pre in the 828, or you will defeat the purpose of the Grace .
Telecaster direct via the composer? Dump it for now, use grace's Di into the 828 line input. Or use an amp>mic>Grace>828 line, and comp it in AD(audiodesk).
Good luck
T
 
What Tonio said.

I assume by "comp" you mean computer, not behringer composer.

The signal path should be Grace to 828 line input. That *should be* the least colored as far as capturing the sound coming off the Grace.

Make sure your cabling is correct. I believe the output of the Grace is XLR, and the line inputs on the 828 are 1/4". So you would need a balanced cable with XLR at one end and TRS 1/4" at the other.

If that's what you are using then I have no explanation why going through two preamps sounds cleanest. Maybe it's a gain staging issue.
 
sorry bout that,
comp=computer.

The grace has a XLR and 1/4 output.
I have been running direct from grace 1/4 to 828 1/4 line input.
I also assummed that it should be the cleanest signal but it wasn't which is why I am puzzled.
 
I probably should have put this in the newbie section but...
I think I know my mistake.
I was just using a standard instrument 1/4 cable from the grace output.
I think the grace requires a trs cable, and I was just using a ts.
Is it better to use an XLR to ts or a TRS to ts?
Does using a ts instead of a trs make that much of a difference?

sorry for being such a newbie.
I've just graduated from my tascam portastudio.
 
Doesn't the 828 have balanced 1/4" inputs? If so, use Grace xlr to 828-1/4"-obviously you would need xlr to TRS cables, and /or adapter.
I think the Grace's 1/4" output is unbalanced? Best yu check on that, because running unbalanced to balanced will give you a weak signal.e.g.Grace 1/4 unbal>828 1/4 bal
Hey we all were newbs at one point.

T
 
I agree with what Sonic Albert said above: You should get a better sound by avoiding the XLR inputs on the 828. The 1/4 inputs bypass the unit's preamps and it's generally a good idea not to feed preamp to preamp. My 828 (the older version) has 1/4 balanced inputs that bypass the preamps on channels 1 and 2. The older 828 also has a series of gain controls on the front which add something like 40db of signal to the 1/4 line inputs. If the new 828mkii has similar controls, I would experiment using these in conjunction with the gain contols on your Grace preamp. I'm no expert, so I'm not sure of the exact relationship between the two sets on controls. I assume you would have to set the 828 gain somewhere above zero, but at what level? At any rate, try different combinations and let your ears be the judge!
 
Oh, yeah, one other thing: If you're using the MOTU 828mkii, you should check out Unicornation.com--the MOTU user's group site. They have a hardware forum that addresses issues like yours and I've seen a number of users talk about good results with the Grace 101 and the MOTU. You can also get help with AudioDesk questions. Although they do not have a dedicated AudioDesk forum, you can post under Digital Performer (The two programs are similar in architecture.)
 
The cabling issue is very important. Look up in the manual and find out what kinds of connections are on the output of the Grace and the input of the 828. Then, get the correct type of cable for that configuration.
 
Just bought a spankin' new Grace myself and am using the XLR's direct to multitrack unit myself!

Talk about CHRISTINE-PRISTINE clarity!!! This baby works!
 
uh yeah, the Di is not bad too. 101 gots alot of headroom baby!

T
 
Okay, thanks for the help...
Did a little research, I guess reading the manual helps too, but I kinda don't like em, kinda the same reason I don't ask for directions.
So the grace is balanced out and MOTU 828 is Balanced/Unbalanced IN.
Aparently using a unbalanced cable from the grace will give you a weak signal and distortion.
So went out and got a TRS to TRS cable and like magic it works. DUH.
Now I got a little curious about cable quality, so I ended up buying a Hosa $4, A radio shack gold plated $12, and a monster 500 $20. Did some tests and the monster did sound better, but barely beating the radio shack. The hosa does stink, It seemed to lose alot of the highs. Thought you guys might want to know, unless you are the kind to make your own. So for people afraid of soldering irons and you have an empty wallet, radio shack is not a bad alternative.
Also now that I have the grace up and running, I am still very impressed by the MOTU pres. They hold up very nicely with the grace. Im not sure if Wouldve bought the grace had I known the MOTU pres were this good (maybe I was expecting too much from the way GRACE is talked about in here). Grace has a little edge in the highs dept. and the motu can get a little muddy in the lower mids, but I have to listen more than a few time to really tell the difference, MACKIE on the other hand , was fairly easy to pick out, with the lack of detail.
 
The secret to Monster is to buy it used on Ebay. Monster has a lifetime replacement warranty.:) Just take any fucked up Monster cables to your local GC and they will replace them.

I picked up an 8-channel TRS/TRS, 3m snake for less than half Monster retail.
 
I was also surprised to see that they 828 pre's were usable--at least compared to some of the preamps I have laying around. The only problem (at least on the older 828) is that using the XLR-MIC IN w/ phantom power does not give you alot of volume. And, on the subject of improving the 828 series with external devices, I'm left wondering about the quality of the A/D converters. A number of people at the MOTU user's group site are modifying there setups by adding external A/D converters via the 828's optical IN. A popular combination seems to be the Apogee Rosetta and the 828. I guess there is no end to the madness!
 
This has gotten like hot rodding cars used to be.

Glad the cable helped. I think once you use the Grace for a while you'll probably hear more and more differences between it and the 828 preamps. Especially when you start layering track after track through the 101.
 
Hurmph said:
Also now that I have the grace up and running, I am still very impressed by the MOTU pres. They hold up very nicely with the grace. Im not sure if Wouldve bought the grace had I known the MOTU pres were this good (maybe I was expecting too much from the way GRACE is talked about in here). Grace has a little edge in the highs dept. and the motu can get a little muddy in the lower mids, but I have to listen more than a few time to really tell the difference, MACKIE on the other hand , was fairly easy to pick out, with the lack of detail.
Click to expand...

A DI guitar is hardly a good test for mic pres.
 
Yo' Tex, I totally agree with what you're saying! Besides adding the standard 20db of gain on line-lev instruments, the 101's phase deviation is approx 5d'grees @ 50hz-25khz which is far greater than my beloved ProCo DB-1 DI's (obviously) which hovers around 8-9 d's. That rite there was the 1st thing I noticed
when I bought the pre home.

Prior to purchasing the Grace(from Sammy's), I kindly asked the salesperson @ Sammy's if he could kindly perform some A/B/C'in
with other pre's and to run it thru various perf's.
He A/B'd vs the DMP3, ART MPA GOLD.
Using a A&H Mix Wiz 16:2DX outted to Mackie 824's, I heard:

A)Large Condensor(vocs)- Grace> a smooth accentuation on upper mids & hi freq'ys adequate translation on lows. Mids strong.
The DMP3 padded mids with a noticeable hype/color in the upper mids. 1-2 db cut diff in lows comp'rd to the Grace while the MPA GOLD seemingly had a lower gain in low to upper mids.
The Grace provides sweetness on vocs w.large cnd'sors

B)DI (gits)- Grace> supreme resolution with more than ample headroom giving a well rounded tone on efx-laden lead solos.
DMP3 again seemed to drop in gain at the lower end while the MPA GOLD (w. variable-voice format in "guitar" mode) loss some edge during "solo-punches".

C)Mic'ing of Acoustic gits(AKG C 1000S)-GRACE>Nuthin' but pure acoustic. DMP3>Ditto! MPA GOLD>a slight, but noticeable audio addition on upper-register chord work.

D)BASS (in DI format) No CONTEST!!! GRACE by a landslide!

These were not in the least, hi'ly-detailed comparisons. Since I own a DMP3 (via chessrock's urging) and an ART TPS ( I wanted to see how the Grace comp'd to ART's hi-er end MPA GOLD instead) and not wanting to spend kraz-ee ded-prez's on pre that's suitable for a George Massenburg but rather the musician/"home-recordist" like me (my daughter's future college expenses come 1st), the Grace....AND LAWD YA'LL, IF NUTHIN' ELSE,...my ears are my most precious commodity... picking up the most slightest of nuances('cept when the wif-ee is yellin' at me! :p) , The Grace, for the money, is truly a worthy piece of equipment!!!...;AND U CAN BELEEEEEVE 'DAT!!!!

Peace
Q.rM


" I Can Now Die In PEACE!!!!!! " :cool:
 
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