gozintas and gozoutas of the electrical service panel, hot, neutral, ground

[sweetbeats]

So, this probably is not the right place to put this up but we all have stuff we plug in to power and I'm scratching my head a bit. Feel free to suggest another place I should go with this, and certainly, Mr. Moderatuer move it if warranted.

Situation

There are two buildings on my property with electrical service: my house, and my shop/barn. I've been living under the false assumption that the household electrical service was grounded like the shop (which has a ground stake visible in the dirt right outside the door). I was so under the spell of this false assumtion that I had even convinced myself that I had seen the ground stake on the household service. It ain't there. I found where the ground wire goes from the household service panel though: to a corroded lug on a cold-water pipe under the house...screw on the lug was even loose. And now it is entirely necessary to redo the ground scheme because a friend and I just got done repiping the entire house with PEX pipe (plastic). The metal pipe is no longer connected to the earth, and non-ideal AFAIK anyway.

Plan

Install a proper ground stake, BUT...

The Wrinkle

My house was built in the mid 50's. There is no ground buss in the service panel. The ground wire that went to the cold water pipe ties in to the neutral buss. It goes like this:

• Two hot wires come from the pole along with a tension wire and enter the hood on the roof.
• The two hot wires (after going through the meter of course) each go to one pole of a double pole main breaker, and then the output of each pole goes to one of the two hot rails on the hot buss to which my breakers are attached.
• The tension wire goes to the neutral buss, and as I said above the wire to "earth" goes from the neutral buss on to its destination (presently nowhere).

My Questions

1. Ideally the neutral and grounds should be on separate busses in the service panel right? So all the white neutral wires from the wire runs in the house go to the neutral buss, and all the bare copper ground runs to a (presently non-existent) ground buss right? And of course there are only two bare copper wires in there anyway (not including the wire to the cold water pipe) as a result of the two circuits I've run since living in the house and of course I ran 14/3 romex for those. And then the wire I plan to run to a ground-rod to be installed would come off the ground buss right?
2. WHY does the "Ground OK" LED on my power conditioner still light even though the ground wire is hanging free under the house??? Is it because the neutral and ground are tied together in the service panel and presumeably the neutral is grounded at the electrical pole on the street?

And, yes, I see this as a fairly urgent issue to resolve.

 

[Blue Jinn]

I don't want to give any bum gouge but I swear I saw some discussion of this tangentially on a website or maybe even here regarding tube gear with two wires and no transformer (where the tube heaters are wired in series to add up to 117 or so) so no isolation with a transformer, and if the neutral is on the wrong side it can lead to a hot chassis. It discusses the purpose of the neutral wiring viz the "ground.." and how it connect to the service.

MAybe if you do a search on isolation transformer series tube filament you'll find that discussion. I can't say that will answer your question, but it seemed relevant.

Also, search for neutral and earth, and single phase http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_phase

BTW it is my understanding that 14/3 is best for 15 amp and below.

 

[evm1024]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral

 

[pianodano]

So, this probably is not the right place to put this up but we all have stuff we plug in to power and I'm scratching my head a bit. Feel free to suggest another place I should go with this, and certainly, Mr. Moderatuer move it if warranted.

Situation

There are two buildings on my property with electrical service: my house, and my shop/barn. I've been living under the false assumption that the household electrical service was grounded like the shop (which has a ground stake visible in the dirt right outside the door). I was so under the spell of this false assumtion that I had even convinced myself that I had seen the ground stake on the household service. It ain't there. I found where the ground wire goes from the household service panel though: to a corroded lug on a cold-water pipe under the house...screw on the lug was even loose. And now it is entirely necessary to redo the ground scheme because a friend and I just got done repiping the entire house with PEX pipe (plastic). The metal pipe is no longer connected to the earth, and non-ideal AFAIK anyway.

Plan

Install a proper ground stake, BUT...

The Wrinkle

My house was built in the mid 50's. There is no ground buss in the service panel. The ground wire that went to the cold water pipe ties in to the neutral buss. It goes like this:

• Two hot wires come from the pole along with a tension wire and enter the hood on the roof.
• The two hot wires (after going through the meter of course) each go to one pole of a double pole main breaker, and then the output of each pole goes to one of the two hot rails on the hot buss to which my breakers are attached.
• The tension wire goes to the neutral buss, and as I said above the wire to "earth" goes from the neutral buss on to its destination (presently nowhere).

My Questions

1. Ideally the neutral and grounds should be on separate busses in the service panel right? So all the white neutral wires from the wire runs in the house go to the neutral buss, and all the bare copper ground runs to a (presently non-existent) ground buss right? And of course there are only two bare copper wires in there anyway (not including the wire to the cold water pipe) as a result of the two circuits I've run since living in the house and of course I ran 14/3 romex for those. And then the wire I plan to run to a ground-rod to be installed would come off the ground buss right?
2. WHY does the "Ground OK" LED on my power conditioner still light even though the ground wire is hanging free under the house??? Is it because the neutral and ground are tied together in the service panel and presumeably the neutral is grounded at the electrical pole on the street?

.

Most likely it's is being earthed at the pole. Drive a big old 8' ground rod down near the service entrance and ground the panel. Use at least #6 copper to carry the ground.

And, yes, I see this as a fairly urgent issue to resolve.

Only recently (about 3 or 4 years back) has the NEC code changed to require new installations have a "isolated" neutral. Prior to that it was the norm to bond the grounds to the neutral buss EXCEPT in certain circumstances such as a mobile home which has always required the ground and neutrals to be isolated. IF you should buy a new stove or dryer, you will see that they now have a ground and neutral terminal which requires a 3 wire with ground.


EDIT: Maybe it changed with the 2000 code. I forget exactly when. But I will check with my electrician.

 

[Herm]

I dont know what they do in your area but in mine the ground and the neutral are connected to the same buss in the panel.
And you should have run 14/2 with ground not a 14/3.

But what I really suggest is to spend the money and hire a electrition to come out. Or check with the county and they will tell what you need to do. Thats what you pay your taxes for.

 

[sweetbeats]

Thanks everybody.

BTW, by "14/3" I meant "14/2 with ground", and Jinn its only a 15A circuit which calls for 14AWG...although, come to think of it, I may have run 12/3 (12/2 with ground after all...)