Goog small amp for recording metal

  • Thread starter Thread starter ericlingus
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I'm going to record some clips this weekend. Although I fear that we are no longer trying to prove anything anyway.....

I have no doubt that a modeler absolutely cannot replicate the subtleties of a tube amp that I appreciate. I know this for a fact because it is my own opinion that is in question. I'm not making that claim in an effort to sum up everybody else's opinion. Some people have come out and said that they prefer solid state amps for metal...there are also people that prefer modelers for metal. So what point is there in trying to convince those people of anything different?

There is a characteristic growl when you hit a power chord through a tube amp. There is a fat barking chunk to a palm muted chord that nothing else can replicate. If you don't percieve these differences than I don't know what to tell you.....you're missing the point.
Ringing chords through a solid state amp make me cringe. The same with modelers. This doesn't mean that anybody has to agree, it's just my opinion. However, for somebody to tell me that tube amps are bullshit hype.....that just makes me laugh out loud. That is absolutely rediculous.
SS amps and modelers have a decent place for certain things. In fact they are nearly indistinguishable for some sounds. But when it comes to heavy metal rhythm sounds, there is no contest in my book. And no that doesn't mean maximum gain shreiking. If anything that means lower gain. It means fatness and warmth. It means a sweet growl and no shitty high end crap.

Those Ibanez examples that were posted might not sound bad, but they would never, ever be confused with a tube amp. They don't have any of the qualities that I like. So who cares if you like that sound better, that's fine, but if you are like me and you love the very specific qualities of tube sound there is quite simply no other way to get it. Period.

Believe me, I would love to be able to plug in a little box and have awesome tone right there. That would be so easy. That would be a miracle! But for me, it ain't happening.

Okay. Carry on with your arguing. ;)
 
metalhead28 said:
Some people have come out and said that they prefer solid state amps for metal...there are also people that prefer modelers for metal. So what point is there in trying to convince those people of anything different?

I think you hit that nail on the head there. Its all a matter of opinion. Musical genres such as metal are so broad now that really I beleive anything goes. Well in fact that just the case with music in general. Its what sounds good to you. As long as you are happy with it then there aint nothing wrong. Obviously this is the case with your own music, I wouldn't try to push my opinions if I was recording something else, I'd ask theirs.

All in all tho, solid state, tube and modellers all have their merits.

Tube - Pro - Ass kicking tone, Con - Expensive as hell, better driven at high vol?

Solid State - Pro - More affordable, probly good for a small amp, Con - Thats a matter of opinion...distortion may not sound as good

Hybrid Pro - Tubier sound. Still affordable Con - Not as tubey as tube

Modeller - Pro - Ease of use, don't have to screw around with mics, Con - Its just not the same as an amp. Again its a matter of opinion. But I personally struggle to get a distorted tone I love out of anything other than an amp. However I pulled a nice tone out a POD once that was fun for a bit of shredding.

I have never owned a tube amp as I don't have the money. I have been using the same hybrid for a very very long time. If I had the money I would go for tubes. But I'd never get rid of my hybrid.
 
Let's work on recording some good clips this weekend. Do we have any 'trusted' members that are impartial and would be willing to moderate or administer this blind "tube vs. SS vs. Modeler" taste test? This only worth doing if we can do it in an organized way and keep it blind. Otherwise it will just be the same as other discussion on this matter.

I have web space I can donate to the cause if no one else does.
 
ericlingus said:
thanks for all the helpful replies. I really would like to see a tube vs amp modeller though.


so you were able to get a good metal tone from the vox tonelab? What kind of metal tone did you get? What band would most accurately describe the tone you got? Also, I did state what type of tone I wanted someone in this thread. I want a black metal tone(think emperor,summoning,ulver,dimmu borgir,burzum,cradle of filth) and a doom metal tone(nortt,thergothon,skepticism). I really wanted to know if there were any small tube amps that are cheap that would be good for that tone. I remember people mentioning some that were really good in another thread.

Dunno. I don't listen to modern metal at all. Heck, I don't listen to OLD metal at all these days, except for occasional Black Sabbath. My main aquaintance with modern metal sounds comes from my wife being a metalhead, and thus hearing the local metal/hard rock station in the car sometimes. My taste in heavy runs much more to things like Neil Young & Crazy Horse, Sonic Youth, the late great Sonny Sharrock - that man had a HUGE sound. Such sounds are often done with small tube amps and distortion pedals.

Anyway, where I found the Vox Valvetronix to shine was those really thick Soldano and JCM900-type sounds - modern metal, I guess. I'd use it direct into the board with the on-board effects (mediocre) turned off. Miking that wimpy little speaker just isn't going to move enough air. But direct, those sounds were pretty realistic for a sub-$200 amp! I don't think they were quite as good as the real thing, but they'd be really easy to use.

The problem with getting a metal-type tone out of small tube amps is not enough bottom end. Small combo amps generally have open-back cabinets which give a much looser bottom, to the point where speaker flopping can be an issue, especially if you detune. But plug a small tube amp into a closed-back 2x12 cab and you'll get closer. Another problem is that most modern small amps are based on a vox-style power amp section, which again is spongier and looser in the bottom than a Marshall-type power amp. Solid state amps can be even tighter in the bottom - that's the Randall amp sound.

At any rate, I think you can get really huge, heavy sounds out of small tube amps. But I wouldn't guarantee they're modern metal sounds! My favorite heavy tone that I've achieved came from the Trace-Elliot Velocette (15w tube combo) about halfway up, then driven by a Keeley-modded ProCo Rat II. The guitar was a Gibson Blueshawk. It was insanely touch-sensitive.

Oh, I should add there that lower-output pickups can sound really big, too. You just need more amp gain to make up for them. Think of all the old grunge bands that used Fender Jazzmasters and Jaguars, guitars with pretty wimpy pickups. For me, a small tube amp, a really good distortion pedal, and low-output pickups is the HEAVY sound. But it's a midrange thickness with lots of complexity and texture. The modern metal sound is more about a powerful bottom-end and percussive attack.

Something else to look into is the Aphex Guitar Xciter pedal. It's very cool for dialing in a big bottom and a clear top without getting muddy or fizzy. Oh, and if you're miking an amp for your sound, be very careful about its placement in the room. The low-frequency stuff makes for lots of room interaction, and it's easy to get dead spots and dropouts from phase cancellation.

Bah. Record direct!
 
neato. I was hoping it could add some "bite" to my tone. The vamp2 souinds a bit muddy even when I add mids and highs. I mean I could try it out. Not like i'll loose out much if it doesn't help. I'm sure id still find some use for it. Fuck it! i'm buying it.
 
Dude you should really restrain from looking for $40 solutions. All thats gonna do is pile up a bunch of gear that won't have any resale value. Save for a decent amp damnit.
 
well I just ordered it. Anyone know what the best way to hook it up would be? I am hooking up a vamp2,dualfex pro into a firebox.
 
I usually don't like to do that. But it's so cheap and I like behringer. I'm happy with my vamp2 which only cost me 90 bucks. Well in a few days i'll get back to you guys and let you know if it helped my tone at all or just totally made it worse.
 
Okay....if we are now officially looking to 40 dollar Behringer BBE ripoffs for guitar tone I am going to just forget about this thread altogether..... :rolleyes:

Sooner or later you're going to realize that you need a good amp. Sooner or later everybody realizes that. If you ask me you're just prolonging the inevitable by throwing your money at cheap and temporary attempts at a shortcut. (There isn't one by the way ;) )
But if it gets you excited, what the hell......good luck!
 
I disagree

metalhead28 said:
Sooner or later you're going to realize that you need a good amp. Sooner or later everybody realizes that. If you ask me you're just prolonging the inevitable by throwing your money at cheap and temporary attempts at a shortcut. (There isn't one by the way !

Everyone's level of playing and recording is different. Most here will never cut a CD that will be sold or played on the radio. Most record for the fun of recording, or perhaps for your buddies to hear. To say you "need" an expensive tube amp to do that is just wrong.
 
I like the sound of your doom metal clip. The black metal one doesn't sound quite as good. Is this with that $40 behringer box you just bought?
 
gvarko said:
Everyone's level of playing and recording is different. Most here will never cut a CD that will be sold or played on the radio. Most record for the fun of recording, or perhaps for your buddies to hear. To say you "need" an expensive tube amp to do that is just wrong.

I'm sorry..perhaps I shouldn't have said "need"...
I just don't know how to aim for anything but the pinnacle, it's hard for me to understand aiming for anything less. Also, "expensive" does not need to be in the equation. There are plenty of places where you could drop a couple hundred dollars on a decent amp and be good to go, especially a used amp. I bought my first tube amp (a 50 watt Marshall) for 300 bucks years ago and i still use it sometimes. I never told him he needed to go buy a $3000 Mesa half stack.....
Besides, I think a good amplifier is more important in a live situation than when recording so this logic does not need to be applied only to one's recording practices. And I haven't even mentioned the impact that a great tone will have on your playing.....
 
I'd still be interested in the poll thing with the same riff played over multiple amps and modellers. I'd be happy to do some recording, but I own mostly tube amps. If anyone is still interested, let me know. I don't have a website, but can possibly email the files? I really don't know much about this file sharing stuff, but I'm sure someone knows. I think it would be neat to do a 15-20 amp showdown on a website. People can choose which one is paired with which amp and after they choose they get to see which ones are really which.

Here are the amp tones I can provide:

Marshall 100watt super lead
1965 Bassman
1968 Bassman
Blues Junior
Hod Rod DeVille
Peavey Butcher
ZVex Nano Head
JC-120
Line6 POD (whichever models we decide on)

What might be neat would be to send all "real" amps through the same cabinet (I have 1x12, 2x12, or 4x12)

Another matter would be guitars. It would be best to use one guitar, or one type of guitar.

I've got some free time this weekend, let me know.

Rory
 
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