Good tuner for Intonation?

[muttley600]

WTF am I "passing myself off as an expert" about...'cuz I'm saying a strobe tuner is a good choice?
Oh...you mean there are bona-fide *experts* on this subject???
Hey...just watch that first step when you get off your high horse.



Oh...and if you're proposing...sorry, I don't think it would work out, I could never live with someone so full of himself like you are!!

OK...now it's your turn again...post back something witty this time.

It ain't about being witty or having the last word. It's about continually chucking stuff in after it has been corrected. Learn to let it go...

 

[CaptGoldenEars]

check my sig.

 

[miroslav]

... after it has been corrected. Learn to let it go...

Corrected by who...you?
You haven't *corrected* anything...you just disagree based on your personal opinion.

And boy...you sure can't let it go either...you keep coming back for more.
This is just like the BBS background color crap...where over and over you simply insisted that YOU didn't see a problem with the color and therefore those of us that did should adjust our perspectives.

My god you are full of yourself!
Or something....

 

[muttley600]

Yeah...I know you are only using one pitch against another to set intonation and 440 is not needed...BUT...
1.) if you can't clearly hear the small difference in the higher harmonics (many people can't), your intonation may be "in the ballpark", but it won't be as "tight" as it can get with a strobe where you can see the smallest differences.

2.)...you are not right about all cheap tuners being accurate enough. Most have +/- 2 or 3 cent error, that's 4-6 cents total!!!
Quite a lot for intonations. So they may NOT give you the same result twice.
Plus, when you are doing high frequencies, the accuracy is even more critical, so even +/- 1 cent makes a difference.
The strobe lets you see things at 1/10th of a cent.

Your saying "ballpark" is OK. With the strobe, you can get out on, or very close to the mound...

Wrong

and Wrong

 

[muttley600]

Muttley...*understanding* has nothing to do with it...it's *hearing* the smallest harmonic differences for intonation setups that is not always easy for most people. A strobe lets them SEE those smallest differences so they can better apply a particular temperament across all the strings.
Sure...anyone can follow your guidelines and TO HIM, the setup may sound perfect...but when you are playing that guitar against OTHER instruments, in a band or in a studio, how YOUR guitar sounds to YOU is not important, it's how it sounds against all the other instruments.
If your intonation setup is made for YOUR ears, it may be fine when you play alone, but for getting it closer to a specific standard...most ears are not going to beat a strobe tuner.

Now feel free to tell everyone one more time that they don't need a strobe...

Wrong...........

 

[muttley600]

Yeah...I know you are only using one pitch against another to set intonation and 440 is not needed...BUT...
1.) if you can't clearly hear the small difference in the higher harmonics (many people can't), your intonation may be "in the ballpark", but it won't be as "tight" as it can get with a strobe where you can see the smallest differences.

2.)...you are not right about all cheap tuners being accurate enough. Most have +/- 2 or 3 cent error, that's 4-6 cents total!!!
Quite a lot for intonations. So they may NOT give you the same result twice.
Plus, when you are doing high frequencies, the accuracy is even more critical, so even +/- 1 cent makes a difference.
The strobe lets you see things at 1/10th of a cent.

Your saying "ballpark" is OK. With the strobe, you can get out on, or very close to the mound...

You highllighted the wrong bit for me thanks for that.

 

[muttley600]

You know exactly what I am saying.
When you play your note against the harmonic...hearing the smallest differences...(the "beats")...is not always easy.

And just to be clear ...this is not about the actual, physical setup of a guitar or the building of a guitar...
...it's about tuning.
I can hear a difference between a strobe tuned guitar and one done by ear. I don't need to be a luthier to do that.

Wrong the thread was about a tuner for setting intonation.

You previously claimed a cheapy is OK for tuning up to but not setups. Wrong again.

 

[muttley600]

Yes...I said early on that Muttley is right about the technical perspective...but that most people just can't HEAR it well enough, and a strobe lets them SEE it.

His view is something like:

Nope, you don't need a high-speed circular saw to cut that piece of wood. I've been using my trusty hand saw for 50 years...and that's all you need!



Tools...pick the one that does the job for you easier, faster, and more accurately...or not.

My view is that you don't need a strobe tuner to do setups or intonation what you need is an understanding of why you DON'T want to be perfectly in tune.. That is factually correct.

 

[muttley600]

I'm not talking about "partials"....I'm talking about the pitch differences between the fundamental and its harmonic when you are setting intonation.
Keep playing word games...but I know you know what I'm talking about.



It's not the internal accuracy that counts. Yes...even a cheap tuner's chip can be accurate and steady each time...
...it's their display that is NOT as accurate as a strobe...DUH.
I'm talking about what you visually see...beucase that's what you do when use a tuner...you LOOK at the damn thing, you don't listen to it.

And you can say I can't...but I'm telling you I CAN hear a difference when I tune by ear and by strobe....finer than you think.
So even though my ear can tell the difference...when I'm just using my ears, after a few note picks, you start to lose your reference, and you can be a tiny bit sharp or flat and your brain starts to lose focus and thinks it's the same. I'm talking about fine, fine differences.
The strobe eliminates the guess work, and you know what...you're still able to use your ears while looking at the strobe.

The word games are yours. You have used inaccurate tems through out this thread demonstrating that you do not fully understand the subject.

It's not the internal accuracy that counts. Yes...even a cheap tuner's chip can be accurate and steady each time...
...it's their display that is NOT as accurate as a strobe...DUH.

Wrong. Very very wrong.

 

[muttley600]

Where did I "taunt" you or toss "flaming insults" at you?
You just called me a bunch of names and told me to fuck off...so maybe you should take a look at your own posts and attitude.

AFA me not seeing any other way...again...look at yourself Muttley. I've never ONCE seen you reject your own viewpoint in favor of ANY other view point presented in ANY thread you've ever taken part in.
Maybe that's not being ignorant...but it sure smacks of egotistical stubbornness.
Is this still about the color of the BBS background...you feel white is best, so everyone else should too?

My view about strobes is not just *MY* view, so it has NOTHING to do with my own ego or any ignorance. Strobes make tuning easier and faster...PERIOD.
I'm not even sure what you are arguing about (other than not relinquishing your own views)...?
What...that the strobe is NOT more accurate...that it's too expensive...that tuning with some "ballpark" formula is better...???

I think you just like saying shit like...It's a waste of money, you don't need it.... 'cuz it kinda' makes you feel all-knowing, and that everyone else is just stupid and guessing at stuff.

Yeah...head for the Cave, that's a good place for ego, attitude and stubbornness.

You have challenged every statement I made against the need for a strobe tuner to set intonation. You resorted to childish taunting. Frankly I don't give a fuck if I come across a stubboirn arrogant know it all. Thats because I do know this shit. I have worked with all manner of tuners and frequency recognition equipment over the years. Many of them far more specific and useful than a strobe tuner. What I know about them is that they are only of use when they are being used measure something that needs to be measured that specifically.

The problem here is that you are attempting to come across as some sort of authority on the subject, you are not.. I AM some sort of authority on the subject so when you get it wrong I will correct it. If you cannot accept being corrected (even by a stubborn arrogant know it all) then that is your problem but to keep coming back and defiantly insist you are correct just begins to wrangle and makes you look dumb in the eyes of many regular members here.

You will note that I NEVER start out handing out advice in other boards here on technical or factual stuff because there are far more knowledgeable and capable people to that. You should take note.

I could go on pointing out more times that you posted inaccurate stuff or continued to insist that you are correct but it is worthless as it is now apparent to everyone that you are not open to challenging your own perception rather that you simply must have the last word. Well my ego will allow you that so please have the last word only don't make it a wrong one or I will be forced to correct you again.

 

[Bubba po]

The guitar at the beginning of "White Man in Hammersmith Palais" by The Clash is slightly out of tune. As a result, the sound is not merely good, it's sublime. Perfection is not good, it's not artistic, it's not HUMAN, therefore it doesn't have value because it cannot connect on an emotional level.

Strobes are for tuning engines. :razz:

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

Maybe I ought to close the thread. Who will that piss off more?

Seriously guys - thanks for the input. It was a serious question based on a false assumption on my part. I have corrected that assumption and I understand a lot more about the subject now. I have some theoretical questions remaining unanswered just from a "this is interesting shit" perspective but I don't want to slog thru a dickfest to make myself heard or try to carry on an educational discussion.


lou

 

[Bubba po]

Maybe I ought to close the thread. Who will that piss off more?

Seriously guys - thanks for the input. It was a serious question based on a false assumption on my part. I have corrected that assumption and I understand a lot more about the subject now. I have some theoretical questions remaining unanswered just from a "this is interesting shit" perspective but I don't want to slog thru a dickfest to make myself heard or try to carry on an educational discussion.


lou

It seems to have run its course, that's true. What goads me in these discussions is that if we could all perceive the inaccuracies in a note to three decimal places then we wouldn't need tuners in the first place. There is a degree of accuracy which is acceptable and anything greater than that is subject to the law of diminishing returns and/or the snake-oil factor.

I have an audiophile friend whose stereo system probably cost as much as a modest house. He buys iridium mains supply fuses because he's convinced himself that normal fuses may somehow degrade the mains supply and therefore the audio signal. When you start doing stuff like that, then you've left the path of sanity, in my view.

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

...if we could all perceive the inaccuracies in a note to three decimal places then we wouldn't need tuners in the first place.

The only reason I bought a tuner in the first place was because I could not perceive 440. I can tune a guitar to itself by ear with no problems and make it sound good all over the fretboard - good within the obvious limitations. But god knows what key it would be in 'cause I don't know what A=440 is with my ear. I will say that I can get pretty close which surprises me. When I restring I tune the guitar as part of "stretching" the strings so I can strum a bit as part of the stretching/setting process. Then I bring it (invariably) up to concert pitch. I'm usually pretty damn close.


lou

 

[Lt. Bob]

here ya' go ..... the cheapest way to get those 'sweetened' tunings.
Peterson StroboClip - SC-1 Clip-On Strobe Tuner - Find the largest selection and guaranteed lowest prices at Musician's Friend.

For just general tuning I find a tuner useful in a lot of situations.

 

[Bubba po]

The only reason I bought a tuner in the first place was because I could not perceive 440. I can tune a guitar to itself by ear with no problems and make it sound good all over the fretboard - good within the obvious limitations. But god knows what key it would be in 'cause I don't know what A=440 is with my ear. I will say that I can get pretty close which surprises me. When I restring I tune the guitar as part of "stretching" the strings so I can strum a bit as part of the stretching/setting process. Then I bring it (invariably) up to concert pitch. I'm usually pretty damn close.


lou

You sound very much like me, there Lou. If I imagine a note in my head from a recording which I know to be A440 - for instance the bass intro to Psycho Killer - and tune to that, then I'm usually within a quarter tone of the correct pitch. If a guitar's in tune with itself, though, it could be over a semitone out and I wouldn't notice! But my son, who's twelve, can and does notice. Bizarre.

 

[miroslav]

Frankly I don't give a fuck......

Boy...you sure put your foot in your mouth on that one!
You've been throwing a tantrum throughout this thread because YOUR view wasn't being adhered to religiously...so saying you don't give a fuck is hilarious.

You can say *wrong* a hundered more times to all the things you quoted above...and then I can put up a few thousand references (which anyone can find all over the Internet) that support what I'm saying.
Hit just about ANY guitar/music related website or forum and ask what is a BEST choice tuner...and 99% of the time the word strobe is mentioned above anything else.
I know you'll be quick to say everyone else is also wrong...and that's fine. It only support my view that this is mostly about your ego and nothing else.

So get busy, why waste time playing forum tennis with me only... ...there's a few thousand websites where they need to be told they are all wrong...and only Muttley is right.

 

[miroslav]

Maybe I ought to close the thread. Who will that piss off more?

It won't piss me off...if that's what you want to do.

But before you close it...I'll just say that you should check/research beyond this thread and this forum...that way you don't need to choose between what I'm saying about strobes and what Muttley is saying against strobes.
Thousands of strobe users/advocates can't be all wrong...can they?

 

[miroslav]

There is a degree of accuracy which is acceptable and anything greater than that is subject to the law of diminishing returns and/or the snake-oil factor.

Yes..there's something to that...but also keep in mind that whenever you have a +/- error inherent in anything (including our hearing)...and you apply that to multiple things, like several instruments, then the need for higher precision becomes more apparent, because the error is repeated out more times, and rarely (maybe never) will everything error exactly the same amount and in the same direction.

Hey...if you want more detailed technical explanations as to why 1/10th cent accuracy is needed when all we can hear is say 2 or 3 tenths accuracy...go check out the Peterson website and forums...there's a lot of good info there. I know one can think they'll say anything because they are selling a product...but again, the thousands of users who always found better tuning with a more accurate tuner can't be all imagination.

 

[muttley600]

Yes..there's something to that...but also keep in mind that whenever you have a +/- error inherent in anything (including our hearing)...and you apply that to multiple things, like several instruments, then the need for higher precision becomes more apparent, because the error is repeated out more times, and rarely (maybe never) will everything error exactly the same amount and in the same direction.

Hey...if you want more detailed technical explanations as to why 1/10th cent accuracy is needed when all we can hear is say 2 or 3 tenths accuracy...go check out the Peterson website and forums...there's a lot of good info there. I know one can think they'll say anything because they are selling a product...but again, the thousands of users who always found better tuning with a more accurate tuner can't be all imagination.

*facepalm*