Give your opinion - whats my weakest link?

[folkben]

I'm recording to computer using the following:
Rhode NT1 mic, cheapish desk (forget brand at present), Echo Mia soundcard, Cakewalk ProAudio 9. I am recording at 16 bit, 96,000 Hz.

I am recording acoustic instruments and voice and have so far been able to get good, clean results BUT I can hear that there is a lack of crispness in comparison with professional recordings. Any opinions on what I might need to improve the end result - especially top end crispness in acoustic guitar etc?? I am trying to get a natural sound, and only using a bit of reverb and compression after recording (via plug in effects). A few possibilities I have been considering are:

Better guitar (using a plytop Washburn at present), newer strings (ie straight out of the packet the day I record), better acoustic qualities in recording room, better mic preamp (ie get a dedicated preamp), 32 bit sampling, better quality effects .... or does the whole thing just need mastering...

I know its hard without a sample, but waddaya reckon?

 

[Outlaws]

You room acoustics.

Best thing you can do.


(since you said "recording room")

I'd say for acoustic guitar you should hit up home depot and get a few 4x8 sheets of wood and cover the floor and walls. Maybe even cut some in half and angle the corners of your (sqaure I assume) room to make more of an octagon.

Hell, if you have a house you plan to own for the long run, you could go all out and put in a wood floor and wall paneling.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

I'm recording to computer using the following:
I am recording acoustic instruments and voice and have so far been able to get good, clean results BUT I can hear that there is a lack of crispness in comparison with professional recordings.

Caveat: this is not a personal slam.

You think fixing ONE weak link will give you a professional sound? In the professional world your entire setup is a weak link. One channel of professional compression will run more than your entire setup--THAT'S part of the reason why pro stuff sounds professional (the other part is the *pro* musicians and *pro* audio engineer using the *pro* gear). From what I can see your equipment is pretty balanced out in the blah quality level so that's exactly what you are going to tend to get.

I can see what you are going for--which is to improve your sound. However, until you throw that stuff away and get higher grade equipment you won't see too much of a change in quality. Or just deal with it.

Probably the best thing you can do at this point is LEARN MORE ABOUT AUDIO and make the most of what you have. If you feel the need to spend money ditch that cakewalk software for something better like Cubase or Vegas, or purchase a UAD-1 card.

I'm not bashing you because I was there once myself, but don't confuse 'good home recording' with professional sound.

 

[junplugged]

well, on one hand, you have a bunch of gear, and it makes up one system, one set of circumstances for your recordings. OTOH, studios generally have many, many options for recording. They have musicians to call, gear to rent, a budget, not one compressor, but 10 and anything available can be rented or some guys carry their own in, there are channels on consoles that have eq compression pre amps on each channel - phase reversal and more, there are options all over, even recording medium, there's analog - different kinds of tape and machines, and digital - options for software, adat, hard disk, etc., and if a producer thinks he's not getting the results from that studio or room in that studio, he can suggest a move. And all of this depends on the project and the specific sound requirments for each individual, unique artist (there's choices of recording rooms, booths, barriers - baffles, monitoring in control room in studio, head sets, speakers, pa systems, basically anything that exists, the producer/engineer knows and has access to and knows what it will do for them after 20 years of using everything on everyone.) so I too, have one set up. One signal chain, one group of cheap-ass mics, once room, one digital box - ok 2 and 2 analog, but I only want to use 1.... so this is the sh!t I have bought into, the fact that I can produce/engineer, record, assist, write, purchase, finance my actual master recording in a home studio. Well, after reading A LOT for the past 6 weeks, I think I've been fooled by gear manufacturers. I can't compete and if I do come up with my demo sounding good, it would be a small chance, but if it happens, it would be b/c I had to work around many many barriers that are there. I'll try and I'll do what I can, but then I'll be saving for something real later - a producer, a studio, an engineer, and I'll have a budget, but for now I can't be a perfectionist or I'll pull all my hair out. Who the hell kknows what my or anyone else's weak link could be????? Basically, not haveing a zillion options, it seems to me, now, after reading and after buying a bunch of crap I thought I could use for a better result than I'm getting with it.

 

[Outlaws]

ya so.........



Whatever.

You're gear sucks dude. You are a failer in life. Kill yourself now before you waste anymore money.


(or fix up your room and make what you have to work with workable)

I had my "shitty ass" C3000B and was conned into thinking I needed a better mic pres and all kinds of other things.

So I bought a thousand dollar mic pre.

Well, my mic still sounds like shit in most rooms. (and I was quite pissed about that - just dig around this BBS a little)
Then I found that when I put my mic in the bathroom or my nice wooden storage shed (10x16), it sounds fantastic. My Martin sounds like it should, and my mic pre sounds fantastic (I still don't know about a thousand dollars fantastic...)

But you kind of get the point I am getting at?

My mixes still sound like home recordings IMO, but to me they now sound like quality home recordings.

 

[folkben]

Caveat: this is not a personal slam.

You think fixing ONE weak link will give you a professional sound?......don't confuse 'good home recording' with professional sound.

This ain't a personal slam either... but isn't the point of this site to improve the ability of the average Joe to make the best recordings possible by providing information, not trying to maintain the "Pro/Amature" gap? I didn't say I was trying to start a professional studio. We all want to spend $50000 on gear but most of us can't.

SO.... to recap my initial question, and having been there yourself, where would you start improving? You mentioned the software and soundcard... I am sure you're right but perhaps you can give more information... what is it about the current setup - sampling rate, quality of d/a converters, something about the software that stores and processes the sound better???

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

SO.... to recap my initial question, and having been there yourself, where would you start improving? You mentioned the software and soundcard... I am sure you're right but perhaps you can give more information... what is it about the current setup - sampling rate, quality of d/a converters, something about the software that stores and processes the sound better???

Keep in mind you said that you were unable to get the crispness and high end of professional recordings. Just so you know--you're probably not going to get it with your equipment. There is a reason that Manley ELOP's cost 5 grand, that LA2A compressors are 3 grand, that GML equalizers reach 11 grand--because they help achieve that clarity and high end.

Trust me, you're not going to get that sound!

You may get in the ballpark, you may get close, but you're still not getting it. If you want pro results: pro gear, pro engineer, pro musicians, pro room, a team of mixing/mastering pro's, pro songs, and a few months of time is all it takes.

I mean, you're not going to get a Kubrick or Speilburg quality film on a 16mm camera with cheap film, recording bad actors by a first time hobbyist director using 99 dollar Wal-Mart film editing software are you? HELL NO! But basically that's what you were asking.

But....

First off the fastest way to impact your sound the most is MIXER. Everything runs thru it. Here are your EQ's and preamps. Look to getting a decent mixer, maybe something like a Soundcraft 200 series... 24 channel 4 buss for about 500 bucks. The CR (not VLZ) 1604 by Mackie is decent, I did some okay sounding stuff on those. They are cheap too--250 bucks and sound thicker than the VLZ's (to me at least).

Next thing I'd consider is improving your microphone arsenal. I'm not sure what your requirements are but if you're doing non-direct music you need some okay mics. You don't have to go all out: some AKG C2000's, C1000's, a SM57 or two and a D112 should give you a decent pallette.

Next step is moving up to 24 bit recording. Myself I always thought 16 bit (except in the top of the lines systems/converters) sounded 'crispy'. I notice a huge difference when I went from 16 to 24 bit in my own stuff.

Software wise look into upgrading to something that has access to more juicy plugins. If you are mixing/recording to a computer you live and die by your plugins. The Universal Audio UAD-1 card is the top shelf these days--cheaper and better than Waves plugs as well. TC Powercore is also pretty nice. Both are around 500 bucks.

Don't forget monitors. You can only fix what you can hear. At least get some Event 20/20's or even (gads) Behringer Truths. I don't know what you are using right now but I'm betting it came with the computer. Make sure to get active monitors unless you want to drop a few 100 for a power amp to go with it.

See where I was getting at in my previous post? The cost to improve your setup quickly adds up. Just one or two things will not dramatically improve sound quality, although it will improve your performance.

Typically, the time to truly upgrade your gear is when your abilities have far outgrown it, when your gear is holding you back. It's all too easy to blame the equipment when something doesn't sound good, but honestly decent recordings can be made on your current gear (with the help of some rental mics for drum kits IMHO).

The reason that I, and many other 'old hacks' got good at recording was that we started in the 80's with 4 track cassette portastudios, and let me tell you that those things are godawful. Hissy as all get out, limited as heck, pingponging your high end bouncing 3 or 4 generations to get something complicated on track... it was UGLY back then. But you learned how to squeeze every last drop out of it and when you got a digital system, even a 8 track, you were like WOW!

So keep plugging at it. Chances are you need more experience than necessarily gear.

 

[Strange Leaf]

If you want a crisp acoustic recording, the idea you had about changing strings is good. Depending on how long it was since you changed them last time, it can make a world of difference.

In any case, it too cheap/easy to not try.

 

[smtcharlie]

The advice above seems to be much better educated advice. But since I'm definitely in the low-budget home recordist category and don't know what I'm doing (I'm just tinkering, which is different than shooting for great sounding recordings), I thought that I'd chime in.

I too have gone through this "how do I improve my sound?" debate, and have gone through a AKG C1000, AKG C2000, Rode NT1000, Groove Tubes tube condensor mic, the Octava MC012 as well as a Berry pre, a Blue Tube pre, a DMP3, and just purchased a Tampa pre. I record to the highly unpopular ADAT format (on this board anyway). This debate certainly hasn't ended...

Have these upgrades helped my sound? Sure. But it has been pretty subtle. And I find acoustic guitar super-hard to record, much more so than drums, electric guitar, bass, vocals. Probably because that's my main instrument and I am more picky.

My humble advice would be to make sure to play with mic placement, that makes a huge difference, especially on acoustic guitar. Try putting the mic closer to the guitar for a "sharper" sound.

Or get a better pre-amp. That seems to affect the "sparkle" of the acoustic guitar (see thelisteningsessions.com for mic pre comparisons). I remember one of the more active and seemingly educated people on this forum saying that they'd rather record with great pre-amps and crappy mics than great mics and crappy pre-amps. DMP3's are popular here.

And, in the end, I still favor performances over equipment (my favorite recorded song ever was done with an AKG C1000, a Berry pre, into an old Betmax VCR!). The trick is to get equipment that inspires you and doesn't get in your way...at least that's what I've come to believe.

 

[folkben]

Thanks for the advice guys - seems that many have been in the same situation - the warnings from people who have spent the cash and still not been happy with the result are heeded - If I decide to spend more on my setup I think I'll try to hire or borrow gear (eg better mics or pres) before I actually fork out the cash to see if it really yields an improvement in results.

 

[manning1]

folkben - i agree 100 per cent with outlaws and his storage shed.
ive owned everything from low end to high end gear in the last 20 years,
and like others often i found that buying high end gear is no quick fix.
there are so many intagibles. like outlaws sometimes ive used a complete POS mic and mixer and just changed to a different room / environment
and gone wow what a difference. bottom line - no quick solutions.
the rent before buying is a good idea.
ive been where you are a million times, but more gear is not often the solution. sometimes its just being a super audio engineer (which im not),
mic placement, the right environment and the right musicians. ive even found a funny thing is humidity. all the best.
by the way i have a POS 20 dollar home made mic here that sounds better on some guitar tracks than some 800 dollar mics ive bought and used as an example.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

...seems that many have been in the same situation - the warnings from people who have spent the cash and still not been happy with the result are heeded...

Then this points to needing improving in recording skills/techinques and quite likely, room acoustics....

 

[Teacher]

I'm not understanding why your recording @ 16 and 96? y not 24 96? or 24/44.1 or something?

 

[strmkr]

I'm not understanding why your recording @ 16 and 96? y not 24 96? or 24/44.1 or something?

That puzzled me too You'll benefit a lot more from higher bit depth than you will sample rate.

 

[leddy]

Look at the bright side. Not having great gear and forcing yourself to make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t is how you learn (and can be fun). Bad gear forces you to look at things like different rooms and mic placement, being more careful about levels, where noise is comming from, etc.. This forces you to learn the craft and become creative. Creativity is vital to getting "the sound".

Think of it this way: If you don't know which piece of gear you need, you probably don't need it yet. This profession/hobby/whatever of recording can be a disease. You will always have "gear lust". Better to have "skill lust".

My $.02.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Look at the bright side. Not having great gear and forcing yourself to make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t is how you learn (and can be fun). Bad gear forces you to look at things like different rooms and mic placement, being more careful about levels, where noise is comming from, etc.. This forces you to learn the craft and become creative. Creativity is vital to getting "the sound".

Think of it this way: If you don't know which piece of gear you need, you probably don't need it yet. This profession/hobby/whatever of recording can be a disease. You will always have "gear lust". Better to have "skill lust".

I agree, but it is also important to know the ultimate limits due to one's equipment. The divide between pro and home studio is getting narrower all the time BUT there is still a huge gap.

Unfortunately, the quality of most pro albums has diminished IMHO. You don't hear recordings that sound like mid-70's Zeppelin, or Mutt Lange's 80's output anymore. The stuff nowadays sounds pretty 'duff.

 

[Middleman]

Your mic, preamp, soundcard and possibly your monitors along with no limiter or compressor are of issue gearwise.

Your knowledge of EQ could be another area of improvement.

$60 worth of foam might improve your tracking results.

16 bit vs 24? Why would you not use the better one?

 

[leddy]

It's good to understand what equipment is in the "best of the small budget gear" category. You can find those threads all over this site.

Speaking of low budget gear, my personal favs are the Oktava MC012 mic and the Studio Projects VTB-1 Preamp. I plan on picking up the UAD-1 card soon too. But I will own an API 3124 or two someday...

 

[NYMorningstar]

First thing to do is to increase your knowledge and skills. It's free. Just stick around this board, read alot and then experiment alot.

There's no question about it either, you have to have a good sound to start with to record so it's best to work on your room's acoustics and your instrumentation. Does your guitar sound good to your ear sitting in the room where you're recording? Try it in the middle of the room, facing the corner or facing into a closet. Try it out in the closet, the bathroom, the garage, the laundry room. Experiment and experiment some more until you find the sound you like.

Once you find the right sound experiment with using different mics and mic placements. One mics, two mics, DI, 6 inches from the 12th fret pointing at the bridge, over your shoulder pointing down to hear what you normally hear when you play. Once you get a general idea of where the mics sound good to you through your monitors, move them around until you find the sweet spot. Again, reading this board will teach you how to do all this and work around phase issues and other common problems. Go here, http://www3.sympatico.ca/bvaleria/bluebear/articles/menu.htm read and you can't lose, it's all free. Increasing your knowledge base is the single most important factor in improving your sound.

As for equipment, I don't know how much water it holds but I've always followed the advice of improving your soundchain one piece at a time starting from the source and following the chain one piece at a time all the way to the monitors. It's worked real well for me and just be careful you don't buy stuff that's going to become obsolete after your next purchase.

Good luck with your project and welcome to the BBS.

 

[junplugged]

Ok, ok, ok, i was in a bad state when I ranted above....

folkben, I've learned some stuff, not a lot, but enough to get me going again and not eBaying it all.

Since we all know this is Home and not Studio rec.com we're gonna be limited. I studied this book, "Behind the Glass," and it's pro producers/engineers interevied and also asked about home recording. They all have pretty much the same things to say and a lot of it is here on HR too. Some say it's the mic, others, the preamp, others the eq or compressors, or tape or tube or analog or instrument quality or performance or vibe. But they all say that b/c they don't know either what the magic bullet is either, THEY ONLY KNOW WHAT HAS WORKED FOR THEM IN THE PAST. And they were lucky enough to find something that's worked for them enough times and they're famous.

So for me, I have found what sucks in my home studio, and that's most things. But luckily, one or 2 things don't suck for me in this home studio. It doesn't matter for sh!t what that is. Why? b/c everyone has a different studio, gear, talent, ears, monitors, mics, walls, carpets, instruments, styles, vocals, humidity, paint, room dimentions, recording media, mixing media, you know, everything.

So I find the one or two things, like I have a nice fat snare now, I have a bunch of mics and I learned how to get a sound off my acoustic that I like from most of them, they all have differing eq curves, I have found a handful of stuff I know and trust and can reproduce and I use them sparingly and feature them when it makes sense and that makes SOMETHING at least, in my recordings that is interesting and works. That's the best I can hope for.

So my little experience, about 2 years here and 20 years fiddling w/ recording and playing and writing and studying is to find what works and use it. But at this moment, you say you don't like your sound. So then start somewhere, it may take a couple of tries to find the link that improves your sound for you (your ears) the most. #1. You didn't mention what you are monitoring on. (this was big for me) if you don't have real studio monitors, then make sure you listen to your mix on 3 sets of stereo systems, car, boombox, computer, etc. my girlfriend has a really nice subwoofer I have to try every week.

so you might not be hearing something on your mix at your studio that on other system, you may actually like - has happened to me....

#2. you were saying crispness. You are 'folk' Ben? sounds like acoustic guitar and vocals, like me. I was and still am amazed at how the sound changes with mic placement around my acoustic guitar. I like a sound w/ a directional mic at the nut, pointed to sound hole. andother is a foot from top pointed to bridge, another is an omni a foot from soundhole, another is the omni right up at the hole, another is under the bridge directional pointing up at the bridge. or 12th fret directional pointed at soundhole. All of these BTW, may change when you turn the whole thing 90 degrees like in my room, odd, but now I have 2x more placement options. Take notes too. I have a looseleaf with a studio log sheet printed up with stuff I don't want to forget and I take notes adn I even use a tape measure for documenting the setup.

you can also, since you have a nice mic, distant mic the A.Gt. near a reflective surface and try that.

I use a heavy pic, 1mm. Try a lighter one and play closer the the bridge but not too close. You get that higher sounding strum thing. - try a reverb that has eq in the program and set it for more high end in the reverb.

Why not put up a sample, you may be chasing something in your mind that doesn't exist, I've done that plenty of times. Then I play some CD's and say, what was I thinking?

It's tricky and it's also really rare that anyone has the same gear since there's so much available. So specifics are hard to come by. Good luck.