Gibson guitars: why the high cost?

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tomleblanc said:
I think you made a lot of great points here bongolation. I know this is a bit off the topic, but given your statement about most American manufacturers being unwilling to pay for the manual labor required to create a good neck, I was wondering how you feel about G&L. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about them except what they say on their webpage, which is to some degree an advertisement, but I was impressed to learn about how their manufacturing process was created and inspired by Leo Fender, who believed the only way to truly make a great guitar was by hand, and thus they use as little automation as possible. Do you find the G&L's to surpass Gibsons, Fenders, etc. in build quality, or is this just a sale pitch?
I know nothing about G&L, other than its part in the Leo Fender story. I've never owned or played one, nor have I ever sold one. Probably 98% of the hundreds of guitars I've been through have been Gibson or Fender product. I don't think the resale value is there on G&L axes, so I don't mess with 'em.

That said, that pitch sounds like typical adman bunkum from someone who never knew anything about Leo Fender. Fender's big goal was to make a serviceable guitar as simply and as cheaply as possible with assembly-line techniques. If machine-built CNT axes would have been possible in 1954, he would have been building them.

Many of his later ideas became increasingly eccentric, impracticable and unpopular in the marketplace. Clarence Leonidas Fender never really had another big guitar design "hit" after the mid-'50s and never understood why (read Fender: The Sound Heard 'Round the World for background).

My own take on machine built guitars is that it's a perfectly good practice if the final work is done painstakingly by hand, which it generally isn't. The reason current Gibsons are so cobby compared to Fenders is that Gibson designs were labor-intensive and never meant to be quick and cheap to produce by machine and small amounts of semi-skilled line labor. The primary Fender designs were simple and non-demanding and have susequently adapted to machine production with fewer tradeoffs in quality.
 
Read that FDP thread (linked above) about specific instances. The vast majority of buyers simply don't know good from bad work, nor what to look for.

There is a possiblilty that a really conscientious dealer sends back the junkier examples - and if so, God bless him - but if he's waiting on Les Pauls with even top binding, he's going to go a long time before he builds up his stock.

Guess you're not familiar with the pragmatic fallacy. Just because you observed something to be so, doesn't make it so. Referring me to a thread is someone else's (or yours?) experiences still doesn't make it so. You are just willing to defend the "Gibson is junk" angle harder than most, but again, that doesn't make it so.
 
randyfromde said:
Guess you're not familiar with the pragmatic fallacy. Just because you observed something to be so, doesn't make it so. Referring me to a thread is someone else's (or yours?) experiences still doesn't make it so. You are just willing to defend the "Gibson is junk" angle harder than most, but again, that doesn't make it so.
I think there are very few people - some, maybe - either here or on the FDP or on alt.guitars or wherever who have examined as many Gibsons as I have over the years, and certainly not with as objective an eye. Those few are universally in agreement with me.

When, for example, less than 5% of a few hundred recent Les Pauls I've examined in various outlets in various parts of the country were free of demonstrable, gross binding flaws, I think the only intelligent conclusion is that Gibson has chronic problems with binding, never mind a couple of dozen other problems that may be in evidence. This is just one example of an ongoing production problem that is demonstrable to even the stupidest person, with his eyes closed. He can feel the irregularities with his own fingertips, even if he refuses to look at them.

So, I've seen literally hundreds of poorly detailed Les Pauls and only a tiny handful that were really well-detailed, at any price. All the people who give me a hard time when I say this are unable to produce "good ones" in evidence. After I tell them what to look for and they honestly examine their own instruments, they find the same things I've been complaining about, but of which they were previously ignorant. Their fallback position after having denied the problem and then grudgefully admitted it with the maximum ill-grace is to say that it "Oh yeah? Well, it doesn't matter!" :p

Sloppy binding - again, a problem just selected for its ease of discovery from many others - doesn't make a bad guitar, but it's the kind of negligence that's utterly inexcusible in an instrument selling for $2000 and up.
 
here is my take

I've been reading a lot of books lately on the History of Guitars, both Acoustic and Electric. Gibson has always recieved high honors for thier craftsmanship, and for thier innovation in guitar designs. They invented the Humbucker for Cryin' out loud!! Not to mention the first usable guitar pickup.

I also read a 24 page article by tonequest or some organization like that about the time effort and work that Gibson put into just their '59 standard re-issue. Gibson searches all over the world for tree farms and test the soil to see if there is there are impurities in it and such. One designer said that he had paid $3000 for a slab of wood for a guitar. They had to take apart four or five original '59s and finally retool the custom shop just to build this one guitar. They even sent five original "bumble bee" capacitors out to several different companies before they found one who would reproduce them - they had to take them apart and reverse engineer them.
( http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/samples/TQRApr03.pdf )

I used to wonder myself, why a guitar would cost $4500, I'm sure much of that was research and development - kinda like a drug company. I also wondered why someone would pay $2000 for an acoustic guitar. That is until I took one strum on a Gibson Hummingbird Reissue. Now I'm saving up my money.

So maybe Gibsons aren't perfect. Maybe they have a few little flaws here and there. Maybe they are expensive. The fact remains that they have been around for over 100 years and have had A LOT of experience in making guitars of all varieties. Just image if every guitar was perfect - they would take MUCH longer to make and then all these Gibson whiners would actually want ot buy them and with supply and demand and economics - they would be even more expensive.

The final point: After about three years of researching in guitars - through books, recordings, playing them at music shops, etc. I would not hesitate to spend the big bucks on a great guitar. Gibsons have a Rich and wonderful History, and thier also going to have a promising future (Check out Gibsonlabs.com.) This is one company who is serious about musical instruments.
 
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bongolation said:
Couple of points: I own six or seven Gibsons at the moment.

I understand getting suckered into the Gibson myth once or twice, but seven times ?

SUCKER !!! :p
 
i have a stinger series r7..........the binding isn't perfectly flush...in fact it actually sits a little lower than the wood..like the routing is just slightly too deep, or the paint is thicker than i think it is. the difference is subtle and doesn't bother me in the least.

it doesn't have the string problems that someone in the other thread was referring to. I dont see any finish problems, but i dont have the eye for the really subtle imperfections. i figure that shouldn't be much of an issue anyway. unless it's really insanely bad (in which case, don't buy it) the little imperfections are going to be covered with pick scratches and buckle rash pretty quickly anyway.

i bought the guitar about 9 months ago. i dont think the binding issue, had i noticed it, would have stopped me from buying the guitar. i actually am considering buying a cs356 right now and although next time i go to the store to check it out, i will check the binding, i wont think much of it and will probably just joke with the guys at the store about the super anal retentive dudes that wont buy a guitar because the binding isn't flush with the guitar.

i have seen really terrible gibsons though. mainly in the cheaper of the american series guitars.
 
i do agree though, that they are overpriced. i shouldn't have had to pay as much as i did for my guitar. and i also agree they get that much for them because they are gibson.
 
Gibson's are most certainly NOT junk guitars. They make some fabulous instruments. Their quality control is spotty, but I actually like that in a manufacturer of that size. Their guitars are usually good, some times horrible, but occasionally amazing. If you are buying a Gibson, you need to spend a lot of time shopping for one of the great ones, but when you find it, it will be one of the best guitars you have ever played. The same can not be said for Fender, Martin, Taylor, or PRS. They all make guitars which are very consistent. They will all be very good, but you will rarely find one which is great.

Gibson is famous for having some of the purely cosmetic details be less than perfect. You will never find a Gibson which has binding which I would consider even close to acceptable, but I have a much different set of standards for my guitars. My guitars do not have the name Gibson on them, so I have to make a guitar which is perfect in all respects in order to get through to the customers. I don't really hold this against them either, because it is not a situation where they once did it right, and they stopped for some reason. They NEVER had perfect binding. But when they were developing their reputation, it was not an issue. I have seen Lloyd Loar era instruments, and they had many of the same issues that Gibsons have now (uneven binding, poorly leveled finish at the bindings, etc.). But no one cared back then, and Gibson is so hide bound (particularly after the mistakes of the Explorer, Flying V, and don't even mention the Modern), that it is not very easy to change things which are of purely cosmetic concern. Gibson is one of the few major manufactures who still uses nitrocellulose lacquer on all of their guitars for just this reason. Many companies use nitro on their high end instruments, but on the cheaper ones, they use cured polyesters. Gibson uses nitro, period. They have a very hard time changing, and they have for many years now.

They bind their necks that way because it is cheaper, but that doesn't mean it is worse, nor does it mean that some people don't prefer it. It is a major pain in the ass for repair, and a fret dress costs more because of it, but their are people who just have to have their "nubs" for the end of the frets. Myself, I just hate bound fingerboards. They are the primary cause of lifting fret ends (which causes buzzing on the "E" strings, and which catches the high "E" string at the most inconvenient times), they raise the cost of a refret by a lot, and if you don't keep your guitar in a well humidified environment, when the fingerboard shrinks, the frets will push right through the binding, and crack it. Bindings are a structurally really bad idea, but manufacturers do not make design decisions based on the long term health of the instrument. They are concerned with the salability of the instrument, not the long term stability. For instance, Taylor has always bound all of their fingerboards, even it only in ebony. They do this because it allowed them to avoid the drop off at the body with the old style necks, but with months the neck would have started to move, causing buzzing up around the body fret. But they sure looked great when you sited down the neck in the store (even though almost no one ever has an issue with that drop off in real life).

I could go on and on about the crappy fret work done in factories (ANY factory, none of them do it right), but why bother? Same with setups. If you buy a new guitar, it will not be setup right. Ever. Nothing is going to change that, though, as setup is so individual, and because factories primary concern is making sure it does not buzz (when most people pick up a guitar in a store, if it buzzes, they put it back down, and will not try it again, which makes them pretty hard to sell). All this means is that when you buy a new guitar, you need to budget $50-100 to get it setup. No big deal.

If you want a guitar that is perfect in all of the details, you need to go with a custom guitar. You will never get that from a factory guitar. That does not, however, mean that I think all people need custom guitars. You just need to be aware that factory guitars will have some (usually purely cosmetic) issues.

There was a thread recently in the mics forum (which I did not read) which asked, "Do you get what you pay for." The answer is almost always, yes. The trick to that answer, and which you need to understand, is that there is a diminishing rate of return. There is a noticeable difference between a $100 guitar and a $500 guitar. There is another big difference between a $500 guitar and a $1000 guitar. The difference between a $1000 guitar and a $2000 guitar is about the same as the last jump ($500 to $1000), but for double the price difference. The difference between a $2000 guitar and a $3000 guitar is pretty small, other than purely decorative stuff (pearl inlay and the like). The difference between a $3000 guitar and a $4000 guitar is going to be very small, and when you get into the price range above that, you are almost always talking about purely cosmetic (or psychological) issues. Inlay, fancy wood (Brazilian rosewood is a perfect example of psychological differences, since the stuff is totally without merit when you consider the quality of wood which we can get today). The other part of the equation with instruments of that price is the name attached to them. Jim Olson (who is THE biggest name in small shop acoustics these days) has a base price of $12,500. Are his guitars any better than the guys who charge $3000? Well, in some respects, yes. You will not find a guitar, anywhere, with the level of fit and finish that Jim's guitars have. However, they do not play any better, and they do not sound inherently better (you may prefer them, but that is another issue all together). They certainly are not four times as good. But they have Jim's name on them, and that is why he gets the prices he does. He used to have a base price of around $6000, but he was finishing guitars, and he would see them on eBay a week latter for double what he had charged. He (rightly) figured that was his money, so he upped his prices, and he still has a back log of eighteen months. He gets all of that because of his name (and the fact that James Taylor will never play another guitar in his life, and says so publicly on a regular basis).

So back to the question of Gibson. Why do they get the prices they do? Because they can. That is the same reason Jim gets the prices he gets, the same reason Fender gets the prices they do, and the same reason I get the prices I get. Because they can sell everything they make at that price. We all make fine guitars, and though there are differences in the fit and finish area, they all play and sound just fine. Different, but fine. Beyond that, it is all just a matter of what you like, and does it push your buttons. If you want to play southern rock, you sure as hell better get yourself a Gibson. If you want to sound like Clapton (shame on you for copying) you need to play a Strat. If you want to play country, you need a Tele. Beyond a certain point, it is all just a matter of preference.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
donkeystyle said:
i have a stinger series r7..........the binding isn't perfectly flush...in fact it actually sits a little lower than the wood..like the routing is just slightly too deep, or the paint is thicker than i think it is. the difference is subtle and doesn't bother me in the least.

The colored lacquer on the rest of the guitar is scraped off over the bindings, which leaves a ledge which must be filled for a perfectly level finish, which Gibson has never done.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
i dont know if light was talking specifically to me with his post, or to the people viewing the thread as a whole.......i assume the thread as a whole, but i just want to clarify that i definitely don't think they are junk guitars... though i have seen some of their cheaper models that i definitely wouldn't buy.
 
Gibson makes good guitars, and their name commands a price. It wasn't that many years ago that they made much better guitars than they do today. I believe most Gibsons are still made in the USA, and that alone adds to the cost compared to inport or partial inport brands.

PRS, and other high end guitar makers, are now giving them a run for their money. Were it not for the popularity of the LP model, I'm not sure Gibson would have the position they do today.

Ed
 
Ed Dixon said:
Gibson makes good guitars, and their name commands a price. It wasn't that many years ago that they made much better guitars than they do today. I believe most Gibsons are still made in the USA, and that alone adds to the cost compared to inport or partial inport brands.

Ed

i know lots of people that would argue with that......i dont know personally, but most people i've talked to about it seem to believe that they're making better guitars today than they're made in quite a long time.
 
good question, they do it cause they can sell them for it. thats about it, and gibson has HORRID quality control, i have argued this before on these boards. but i see it every day and most of you guys dont. we had to send 12 country gentlemen back to gibson because in every single one of them there was a major flaw (loose frets, finish burn through from buffers, poor finish in general, defective pickups) and these come directly from the custom shop to us. i also personaly have sent two les paul black beauties with the bigsby back to them because of amazingly poor finish jobs. this is yet another custom shop direct guitar. but one good thing is that when we send them back these guitars they are glad we did, because they dont want these products being a representation of their products any more than we want them to be a reflection of our company.

but yes i do play gibsons myself, why? because i love them, other than paul reed smiths, rickenbackers, and gretches, there is nothing nicer. but remember beauty is all in the eye of the beholder. i see these country gentlemen, an i think "wow this is a pice of shit" and some one else may think "this is the most amazing guitar i have ever seen".
 
I enjoyed reading this forum.

Gibson does command respect. But regardless of the cost of the guitar and the external beauty and pefections, it all boils down to personal preference:

1) Does it fit comfortably in your palm?
2) Can you make the sucker sing?

$4500.00 is a bit too much for me. I have an Ibanez JEM which keeps me happy for shredding. But, I am looking for an alternate guitar like the Gibson, for a slower style of playing, which will provide me added control over string and fret play(which is not possible on my Ibanez).

Thanks for all the posting.
 
donkeystyle said:
i dont know if light was talking specifically to me with his post, or to the people viewing the thread as a whole.......i assume the thread as a whole, but i just want to clarify that i definitely don't think they are junk guitars... though i have seen some of their cheaper models that i definitely wouldn't buy.
A general statment.

Oh, and by the by, Leo Fender never in his life wanted anything so badly as to be able to automate every single step in the guitar building process. Hand-built and Leo Fender should never be in the same sentence. Ever. But that is marketing for you.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
bongolation said:
When, for example, less than 5% of a few hundred recent Les Pauls I've examined in various outlets in various parts of the country were free of demonstrable, gross binding flaws, I think the only intelligent conclusion is that Gibson has chronic problems with binding, never mind a couple of dozen other problems that may be in evidence.



Gibson's bindings have always sucked. So have their glue cleanup procedures and they have never had great finishes. The ones which get to me (though to their credit they always replace these) are the things like the L-5 we had in a while back where all of the pickups, and even the F-holes, where off center. That is a big no no.

Of course, I would never buy a new Gibson arch top. Heritage makes them better, and besides, no one actually makes a good sounding ACOUSTIC arch top anymore. They are all made to sound good electric, but that is not what I want them for, myself. Give me an Epiphone (a real Epi, from before Gibson bought them, back when they made better guitars than Gibson) Emperor, or a Broadway.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I spent 2 years looking for a J200. Every one of them I played in that time just flat out sucked. I got so discouraged that I bought a Guild JF30 (a highly underrated guitar IMHO). Then I got the urge for a J45. This time I got lucky and found a magic one at Elderly. Light is correct when he says you have to look hard, but when you get a good one, it's spectacular.
 
I've owned a strat since 1983, same one, and I love it. That said, I recently bought a 1957 historic LP goldtop for less than 2 grand. I love the feel of this guitar and it has become my favorite.
 
Wide Awake said:
I understand getting suckered into the Gibson myth once or twice, but seven times ?

SUCKER !!! :p
Not at my buy prices. I've owned hundreds since the mid-'60s and made a profit on every one.

Remember, we're talking about price and value here.
 
Sucker or not, I'll stack my Custom against any guitar for sound, playability and craftsmenship......

I've owned mine since 85 but I traded a yamaha electric plus $350 for it...did I get a deal or what?

It's only fair to mention I also have a 96 american Telecaster....it's also a great guitar.
 

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