getting started set up

[thehook]

ok so I think I got it narrowed down.

mxl v67 (or g?) for vox for warmth and fullness and specific mention to country ballad (most my songs, although not in the watered town brooks, mcgraw way )

MXL603S for acoustic I don't want an overly bright happy sound though. just clear and warm. Will this do it?

would either of these be passable for recording harmonica and or banjo?
I know the 603s is said to be real bright and I don't think that would match my clawhammer banjo playing very well. For those who are not sure what clawhammer is, its a style of playing where you form your hand like a claw and strike the strings in a rhymthic downward motion. It is different from the bright bluegrass sound in that mostly the tone that everoyne likes is mellow,deep and plunky. something that creeps up on you instead of kicks you in the face like bleugrass.

what do you all think of the choices?
found that pre you mentioned on ebay gonna buy tonight for $90
it will plug directlly into my sound card right?
thanks matt

 

[Harvey Gerst]

also somewhere I found a link of Harvy Gerst talking about the v67 mic. What is the differance between v67 and v67g? I like the reviews for it. Said full, warm and lively. Said good for country/ballads which is right up my alley. Thanks

They're the same mic.

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

ok so I think I got it narrowed down.

mxl v67 (or g?) for vox for warmth and fullness and specific mention to country ballad (most my songs, although not in the watered town brooks, mcgraw way )

MXL603S for acoustic I don't want an overly bright happy sound though. just clear and warm. Will this do it?

would either of these be passable for recording harmonica and or banjo?
I know the 603s is said to be real bright and I don't think that would match my clawhammer banjo playing very well. For those who are not sure what clawhammer is, its a style of playing where you form your hand like a claw and strike the strings in a rhymthic downward motion. It is different from the bright bluegrass sound in that mostly the tone that everoyne likes is mellow,deep and plunky. something that creeps up on you instead of kicks you in the face like bleugrass.

what do you all think of the choices?
found that pre you mentioned on ebay gonna buy tonight for $90
it will plug directlly into my sound card right?
thanks matt

Don't get obsessed with the term 'warm', for a beginner this often translates to 'mud' in the finished product (I speak from bitter experience). In a decent sounding mic 'bright' doesn't necessarily mean tinny or sterile (which I think may be your fear with the 603). You have to be realistic when taking into account your budget and the type of gear you'll be using. That said, with experience and sound technique you'll be able to record very respectable demos with those mics and the DMP-3.

Like I said I can't comment on the suitability of the MXL603s on banjo. It works for me on fingerstyle acoustic guitar but that's a bit different to clawhammer banjo as I'm sure you appreciate.
You can use a condensor for harmonica but be very careful as they are a lot more sensitive than dynamics. If you try it make sure it's from a distance (ie. don't hold the harp close to the grill of the mic like you would with a dynamic). Personally I've always got more joy with a dynamic mic on harmonica soundwise anyway. Would an SM-57 be too much of a stretch on your budget?

If your soundcard has one (stereo) input then you well need a splitter lead- 2x mono jacks into x1 stereo mini-jack.

 

[oldseed2]

ok so I think I got it narrowed down.

mxl v67 (or g?) for vox for warmth and fullness and specific mention to country ballad (most my songs, although not in the watered town brooks, mcgraw way )

MXL603S for acoustic I don't want an overly bright happy sound though. just clear and warm. Will this do it?

would either of these be passable for recording harmonica and or banjo?
I know the 603s is said to be real bright and I don't think that would match my clawhammer banjo playing very well. For those who are not sure what clawhammer is, its a style of playing where you form your hand like a claw and strike the strings in a rhymthic downward motion. It is different from the bright bluegrass sound in that mostly the tone that everoyne likes is mellow,deep and plunky. something that creeps up on you instead of kicks you in the face like bleugrass.

what do you all think of the choices?
found that pre you mentioned on ebay gonna buy tonight for $90
it will plug directlly into my sound card right?
thanks matt

make some space in your budget for cables. using your existing soundcard (guessing it's a soundblaster audigy of some kind), the out from the mic pre will go into the in in your sound card. you'll need the right cabling (probably unbalanced RCA left and right to the one stereo small headphone jack). and you'll need mic cables of course. that's $30 right htere.

anyway your MXL603s is a small condenser and will give you a nice accurate song of the source. you want warm? better hope your guitar is warm. don't rely on mics to get you warm. and use heavier strings (and new) if you want a nicer sound in the recording.

the large condenser mxl67 will be good for your vocals.

with this set up you can choose to record your voice and guitar at the same time or separately. at the same time, you would simply point the large condenser at your face and the small at the guitar and experiment with positioning. you'll be recording in stereo, and might get "phase problems" but nothing a little inverse polarity can't fix (in cakewalk sonar, you just press a button to switch phase). which reminds me, make room in your budget for a recording program. maybe cooledit.

you'll have to do more reading on the net for help with stereo miking. here's a starter website. http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/directory.htm

 

[DJL]

I haven't used it on banjo, but I have used it on a Martin Backpacker, which has a sort of banjo-like sound due to its small body. The sound was very usable.

Thanks scrubs.

 

[thehook]

Don't get obsessed with the term 'warm', for a beginner this often translates to 'mud' in the finished product (I speak from bitter experience). In a decent sounding mic 'bright' doesn't necessarily mean tinny or sterile (which I think may be your fear with the 603). You have to be realistic when taking into account your budget and the type of gear you'll be using. That said, with experience and sound technique you'll be able to record very respectable demos with those mics and the DMP-3.

Like I said I can't comment on the suitability of the MXL603s on banjo. It works for me on fingerstyle acoustic guitar but that's a bit different to clawhammer banjo as I'm sure you appreciate.
You can use a condensor for harmonica but be very careful as they are a lot more sensitive than dynamics. If you try it make sure it's from a distance (ie. don't hold the harp close to the grill of the mic like you would with a dynamic). Personally I've always got more joy with a dynamic mic on harmonica soundwise anyway. Would an SM-57 be too much of a stretch on your budget?

If your soundcard has one (stereo) input then you well need a splitter lead- 2x mono jacks into x1 stereo mini-jack.

ok on my soundcard there are some icons. One is looking like sound in, the one next to it looks like sound out and there is a mic looking input with sound going out of it.
what do you make of this with respect to the splitter?

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Rather than the 603, I might look at the Oktava MC012. It's a little darker so it might be better for banjo, and it's not too shabby on acoustic guitar, plus it could be used for vocals.

I think you could do everything with 1 MC012, and 1 SM58. Put it through either a DMP3 or a VTB1 and into a soundcard, say an M-audio Audiophile 2496. Then you could get some cheap or free DAW software like N-Track Studio, and you'd be pretty much set. Of course you'd need at least two mic stands, a pop filter, and at least two cables.

I'd say total for all that new would be about $550

Used, maybe $300

Then I would suggest getting a book on recording techniques if you don't already know how to do all that stuff. Hope that helps,

-Peter

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Assuming an open back "folk" banjo (i.e., no resonator), the 603 or the MC012 work fine, about a foot or so away, pointed about where the neck meets the shell.
Clawhammer is pretty easy to record since it's not usually the dominant sound in a group. For some reason, the 603 also works well with bluegrass banjos, even though you'd think the bright peak would be too bright; it isn't.

I recorded an entire bluegrass group, using just 603's for all the small instruments (guitar, dobro, mandolin, fiddle, and banjo); used an ECM8000 for the bass, and a couple of MXL V77's for the vocals. Everybody was very happy with their sound.

 

[crazydoc]

...used an ECM8000 for the bass,...

Where did you put it?

 

[Kevin Deschwazi]

ok on my soundcard there are some icons. One is looking like sound in, the one next to it looks like sound out and there is a mic looking input with sound going out of it.
what do you make of this with respect to the splitter?

You want the Line In (that's the imput that doesn't have the mic logo next to it). The preamp is raising the signal of your mics to line level, hence the reason for using this input.

From what Harvey says it looks like that MXL 603 will work for you on banjo.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Where did you put it?

At the right shoulder of the bass, even with the neck/body joint, about a foot out, pointed straight down at the floor.

 

[crazydoc]

Thanks, I'll give it a try. Is there much bleed (especially from the banjo)?

And if I'm tapping my foot...?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Thanks, I'll give it a try. Is there much bleed (especially from the banjo)?

And if I'm tapping my foot...?

Nope, to both questions.

The banjo was about 6' away from the bass. I got some bleed, but it was a good 20dB down at least, good enough for bluegrass.

The carpeted floor didn't allow for much "foot tapping" pickup.

 

[mshilarious]

Here's my take:

- Shure Green Bullet, $100
- used Shure 545, $50
- MXL v67g, $100
- Yamaha MG10/2 mixer, $100
- a pair of cans, I'm not particular. Get a pair of Harvey's, you can't beat the price--$20? $30? I forget.
- Audiophile 2496 card, $100
- 2 stands, cables, $100

OK I went a little over, $580, and you still need monitors, which unfortunately aren't cheap. Just use whatever speakers you have until you can save up some more.

Everybody keeps saying to wait on the Green Bullet, but I say get it right away! Here's why: it has THE SOUND. I mean that dirty sound. It's not just for harp anymore! It rocks on slide guitar, and for that ol' time blues vocal sound, like Son House.

Now you don't want that sound on everything, it is very very colored. But it is 900 degrees away from modern country--it will spin you around two and a half times and send you in the opposite direction!

If you decide on the Green Bullet, you'll want to do the balanced XLR mod (details on Shure website), and I have an easy mod to mount threads for a mic stand too. That way you can use it just like a normal mic. Lemme know if you need details.

OK, the MXL I don't know so I'm just going on other people's recs here, but you will want a condenser, and that one seems nice and flat, which should be good for you. If you want to avoid the modern country sound, you need to avoid bright condensers.

Plus the MXL is also green! You can't lose with two green mics!

For banjo the 545, another choice for vocals too.

I think with those three mics, you could be happy for a very long time. Someday you might want a ribbon for the fiddle, but those are kind of pricy . . .

 

[thehook]

well thanks everyone. I am surprised Harvey has time for trivial things like this, thanks man.

why do you say go with the mixer over the two channel pre amp?
another dumb ass question what are cans?

why do you say that card over stock full duplex NVIDIA 16 bit sound card. Is it necessary like a mic and a mixer? Because I had one guy tell me he used stock for 5 of the 7 years of recording and just recentally outgrew it.

thanks again all

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Not to put words in mshilarious' mouth, but:

1. Because a mixer can give you more flexibility down the road. It basically comes down to flexibility vs. quality. Mixer will allow you to do a lot more stuff, but they have inferior pre-amps (at least in the prosumer ones). Dedicated preamps are only that - preamps, but they usually sound better.

2. cans = headphones

3. Soundcards for games and the like have poor A/D converters on them and in general sound pretty crappy. The guy you talked to must have had bad ears or knew something I don't know because I used to use an NVIDA sound card and it sounded terrible for recording. Plus, it's always nice to have the option of recording in 24 bit.

 

[mshilarious]

well thanks everyone. I am surprised Harvey has time for trivial things like this, thanks man.

why do you say go with the mixer over the two channel pre amp?

The two channel preamp gets you better pres, but the mixer has decent 4 pres which it can mix down into your card. It can also help in setting up monitor mixes, routing soundcard outputs, live gigs . . . plus it has a headphone amp.

another dumb ass question what are cans?

Sorry, jargon. Headphones.

why do you say that card over stock full duplex NVIDIA 16 bit sound card. Is it necessary like a mic and a mixer? Because I had one guy tell me he used stock for 5 of the 7 years of recording and just recentally outgrew it.

The quality of the conversion is much better, but it's not absolutely necessary to upgrade. If you want to go barebones, start with one mic, the mixer, headphones, and whatever you want to use for monitoring.

Oh, and as much as I love the Green Bullet, I wouldn't make it your only mic.

 

[mshilarious]

Not to put words in mshilarious' mouth, but:

1. Because a mixer can give you more flexibility down the road. It basically comes down to flexibility vs. quality. Mixer will allow you to do a lot more stuff, but they have inferior pre-amps (at least in the prosumer ones). Dedicated preamps are only that - preamps, but they usually sound better.

2. cans = headphones

3. Soundcards for games and the like have poor A/D converters on them and in general sound pretty crappy. The guy you talked to must have had bad ears or knew something I don't know because I used to use an NVIDA sound card and it sounded terrible for recording. Plus, it's always nice to have the option of recording in 24 bit.

Those are good words

 

[Harvey Gerst]

well thanks everyone. I am surprised Harvey has time for trivial things like this.

Having done the sound at the Ash Grove during the 60's for people like Doc & Merle Watson, Jean Ritchie, the New Lost City Ramblers, and a few million others, this kind of music is part of my heritage; it ain't trivial to me.

 

[OneRoomStudios]

Having done the sound at the Ash Grove during the 60's for people like Doc & Merle Watson, Jean Ritchie, the New Lost City Ramblers, and a few million others, this kind of music is part of my heritage; it ain't trivial to me.

Hey Harvey, out of curiosity, have you read Dylan's Chronicles? He talks about those artists a bit, and his other influences. I know you used to be big into the folk scene - did you ever get a chance to meet him?