is there a chart or list of panning width for instruments in a mix somewhere? i've looked for some type of "rule" and never found anything. i pan to make my mix sound like everyone else's mix, but i would think that most pros follow some type of general panning plan. for example: i always panned my double tracked guitars 100% L/R, but recently i've been told that many people only pan them 80%. where can i get some type of definitive answer on this question?
general panning of instruments
- Thread starter Singtall
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RAMI
Guest
No.
And you won't, either. If there is a rule, it's "Use your ears and make your own judgements".
Considering "everyone else" makes their mixes differently, that would be impossible.
They don't. Listen to 10 different songs and you'll see that for yourself.
Right. "Many people" probably do pan them 80%. Many people pan them 60%, many people pan them 50%, many people pan them 100%. The point is, there isn't one cookie-cutter, paint-by numbers way to do anything.
You just did. There isn't one.
BroKen_H
Re-member
It's all about perception. You place things spatially with pan/reverb/echo and combinations thereof. You place things timbrelly (yea, I know it's not a word, but we're dealing with sound of the wave or timbre (pronounced TAM ber)) with EQ/compression and some other quirky techniques.
Even if you listen to an album (almost any album, go ahead and pick one) you'll find that every song is arranged different spatially. It depends on the song, the concept the artist wanted, the ear of the producer, and a list of other things. Suffice it to say that each song DESERVES its own space. If every song sounded the same we'd not have "Children of the Sun" or "Dark Side of the Moon" or a million other well produced songs...
In the beginnings, most boards had assignment (no panning) and therefore the LCR techniques that I've just recently learned about. 100% panning, but you can still place things panned in LCR by putting duplicate tracks left and right and adjusting the volumes of each.
You want rules, pick a genre, listen and see what you hear. If everything were bass and kick down the center, electric guitars left 80%, right 80% and lead down the middle, lead vocal down the middle, backups with 16 iterations of unison, keys 26% right, acoustic 26% left in a large room reverb and each instrument placed by controlling the amount or reverb sent to the individual track, music would become very boring, very fast.
Some people (on some songs) like a wide spread on the drums, while others (or the same people on different songs) prefer the drums mono. It's the feel of the song and what you want the audience to perceive that matters. Don't look for something hard and fast in any aspect of music. If you use cookie cutter methods of recording, your songs all come out sounding the same and it's not long before people say, "Meh, heard that before.", and not, "WOW! I've never heard THAT before!"
Keep practicing. Keep listening. Don't be discouraged to ask question. Happy Recording
Even if you listen to an album (almost any album, go ahead and pick one) you'll find that every song is arranged different spatially. It depends on the song, the concept the artist wanted, the ear of the producer, and a list of other things. Suffice it to say that each song DESERVES its own space. If every song sounded the same we'd not have "Children of the Sun" or "Dark Side of the Moon" or a million other well produced songs...
In the beginnings, most boards had assignment (no panning) and therefore the LCR techniques that I've just recently learned about. 100% panning, but you can still place things panned in LCR by putting duplicate tracks left and right and adjusting the volumes of each.
You want rules, pick a genre, listen and see what you hear. If everything were bass and kick down the center, electric guitars left 80%, right 80% and lead down the middle, lead vocal down the middle, backups with 16 iterations of unison, keys 26% right, acoustic 26% left in a large room reverb and each instrument placed by controlling the amount or reverb sent to the individual track, music would become very boring, very fast.
Some people (on some songs) like a wide spread on the drums, while others (or the same people on different songs) prefer the drums mono. It's the feel of the song and what you want the audience to perceive that matters. Don't look for something hard and fast in any aspect of music. If you use cookie cutter methods of recording, your songs all come out sounding the same and it's not long before people say, "Meh, heard that before.", and not, "WOW! I've never heard THAT before!"
Keep practicing. Keep listening. Don't be discouraged to ask question. Happy Recording
mjbphotos
Moderator
^^^ What Rami said. X2
Make your own 'rules', if you must. If I'm mixing a song that has a 'full band' worth of equipment I might pan everything as if the band were playing live in front of me (with the exception of putting the bass in the center) - so there's one guitar to the left of the drums, one to the right, keyboard over there >>>, etc.
Make your own 'rules', if you must. If I'm mixing a song that has a 'full band' worth of equipment I might pan everything as if the band were playing live in front of me (with the exception of putting the bass in the center) - so there's one guitar to the left of the drums, one to the right, keyboard over there >>>, etc.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
The question at the start of the quote is actually not a dumb or unusual question at all. Given that the art of panning is more than 60 years old now and has kind of settled into something approaching a consensus in the minds of many and given the comments, ranging from incredulous through savage to derisory that sometimes flow when, for example, discussing something like mono drums or hard panned drums or even things like 'vocals on one side, music on the other' or panning in previous decades and given that there are charts covering so many things {optimum mixing positions to bass waves to hearing capability at various ages
etc etc etc} in music recording, shaping and listening, then is it really surprising that someone, somewhere, should eventually ask if such a chart exists ?I'm not at all surprised.
Such a chart or website probably does exist somewhere and the OP just hasn't come across it yet. There's not much that can't be found in cyberspace, for better or worse.
If you are fairly new to mixing or a bit stuck or not particularly gifted or good in that area, there's no shame in doing that. Many of us, especially on the home recording circuit, are thrilled and inspired by what we've heard other people do. People's mixes that we are impressed by come at us in a certain way and trying to emulate is, I'd say, a pretty normal thing to do. That's partly how we learn from one another. Then as we get a bit better and get more confident, we branch out and start doing things more and more our own way and eventually, we may track and maybe even write with our mix at least partly in the back of our mind.
Trying to emulate what someone else already does well is a useful place to start but a shameful place to remain.
I agree.
I've read hundreds of interviews and dozens of books in which engineers and producers speak about what they do and how and I've read tons of tomes on mixing and how to etc {not that it appears to have done me much good !!
I'm not saying that every panned instrument is exactly the same in percentage terms but there is a rough similarity in so much of the music one hears in terms of instrument placement that it's seriously bucking the odds to conclude it's all coincidence.
I've never forgotten what was written in the manual of the Fostex X15, my first multitracker, regarding mixing. It said something like
So though there were "no rules" there were "accepted practices." Hmmm.
The question that's straining at my leash is "were you happy or unhappy with your guitars panned at 100% L/R before someone mentioned 80% ?"
In a way, sheer experimental curiosity or mixing logic should at some point nudge you into trying all kinds of different L/R combinations for your guitars, just to see how they sound to you in the mix of whichever song you're trying it in.
But the quest for pan percentage numbers are really just a front for the larger point about where instruments are usually placed in the mix and it is now almost standard practice to pan guitars opposite each other in some way, shape or form. Not many people would have two guitars in a song and pan them both to the left. So there are, however unconsciously, forms of panning "laws" at work. Precise, definitive, never to be deviated from percentages are, in my view, kind of extreme {although there will be some that may swear by them} but the principle they underscore certainly is not.
It gets picked up by osmosis via opinion and can be reinforced by the music one listens to. But even if you were to find a 'definitive' that you'd be happy with, you may find that it would in reality be a straitjacket.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Ah, but for whom ? For those involved in the making of music like us {a humongocious minority on a planet of 6 billion people or however many there are} or for those who just listen to it and like it in degrees or don't but have no interest in how it's made ? I don't think most people would notice beyond the common observation of those that don't get really into particular types of music of "it all sounds the same to me !" How many people do you know that are just listeners who can even tell you what panning is ?
BroKen_H
Re-member
Try to remember the first time you heard "Children of the Sun" from Billy Thorpe, or the Quadrophenia or They Only Come Out At Night albums, just to name a few. They completely blew me away! That was so different, so encompassing, so engaging, that I literally listened to those two albums until they were worn out.
Hey, I know we're the minority, but I've got friends that listen to classical, and they HATE flat albums. Yeah, most of them still listen to vinyl only (purists). Anyway the crux of the matter is, they want to hear WHERE the oboe section is. They want to feel like they are the conductor in front of the orchestra...
Some are that way in other genres as well, wanting the presence of a live show in a studio album. Someday, maybe, if technology gets there, we'll be able to move around physically and hear things in a mix where we are. I'd LOVE that. It'd take a long time to get bored with discovering the subtle nuances of the recording. I can almost describe the tech it would take, and I believe it's all available.
Anyway, I personally TRY to play with the placement of the instruments (and I try not to use the same set of instruments the same way) for each individual song I record. I've done exactly what you quoted. I've mixed guitars down the center. I've panned vocals out in tandem. I've flat panned the drums and I've opened up the kit. I've made instruments to move as you're listening to the performance to "bring them out".
It's all fun! I love playing around with this stuff. The point was not so much that "people will get bored with your mixes" as much as I just think people should look for ways to experiment and practice over stuffy cookie cutter rules. That's what makes the next great production/producer!
My 2 pennies worth.
Hey, I know we're the minority, but I've got friends that listen to classical, and they HATE flat albums. Yeah, most of them still listen to vinyl only (purists). Anyway the crux of the matter is, they want to hear WHERE the oboe section is. They want to feel like they are the conductor in front of the orchestra...
Some are that way in other genres as well, wanting the presence of a live show in a studio album. Someday, maybe, if technology gets there, we'll be able to move around physically and hear things in a mix where we are. I'd LOVE that. It'd take a long time to get bored with discovering the subtle nuances of the recording. I can almost describe the tech it would take, and I believe it's all available.
Anyway, I personally TRY to play with the placement of the instruments (and I try not to use the same set of instruments the same way) for each individual song I record. I've done exactly what you quoted. I've mixed guitars down the center. I've panned vocals out in tandem. I've flat panned the drums and I've opened up the kit. I've made instruments to move as you're listening to the performance to "bring them out".
It's all fun! I love playing around with this stuff. The point was not so much that "people will get bored with your mixes" as much as I just think people should look for ways to experiment and practice over stuffy cookie cutter rules. That's what makes the next great production/producer!
My 2 pennies worth.
MrWrenchey
New member
First thing that came to mind for me;
http://www.bandamp.com/user/album/10685/1000002175.jpg
Now like everyone else said. This is not a hard and fast rule. This is ONE instance of how to pan things to make them sound like the band is basically playing in front of you (as mjbphotos said). Do not take this is a "YOU'RE ONLY ALLOWED TO PAN LIKE THIS" image, but if you want an idea of where some people pan things for just a "normal" recording, this would be one.
http://www.bandamp.com/user/album/10685/1000002175.jpg
Now like everyone else said. This is not a hard and fast rule. This is ONE instance of how to pan things to make them sound like the band is basically playing in front of you (as mjbphotos said). Do not take this is a "YOU'RE ONLY ALLOWED TO PAN LIKE THIS" image, but if you want an idea of where some people pan things for just a "normal" recording, this would be one.
Armistice
Son of Yoda
I'm currently listening to The Both (Aimee Mann and Ted Leo) on iPod. They have stuff panned everwhere, not just in the "traditional" spaces... drums left, single voice right... all sorts of weird positions. Mind you Ted Leo is noted for that stuff, but still, it sounds fine...
Do what you want.
Do what you want.
My go to panning is, Guitars 27-40%, lead is just slightly off to the side depends on if there are two guitar players or if its one and the rhythm is double tracked. I try and have the kick drum off to the right by 2-5 % and the bass to the left 2-5%, seams to help with spreading the two . but honestly do what sounds good to you.
Rod Norman
New member
I agree. Listening and doing what makes you feel your music sounds right to you is the best way. Sometimes, for effect, you might run a sound from left to right and then back, like a guitar slide (I pull that to a separate track and auto pan it), but I look at the band as being right in front of me, drums about 15% left to 15% right (hi hat on the right), bass beside the hat at about 20%, with a slight flange return at`20% left. Guitar, if double tracked, somewhere around 60% to 100% left and right (depending on how it sounds best to me) Singer at center, back ups doubled and usually 50% left and right with chorusing at 100% left and right. There are also stereo widening plug ins. These are rough basic suggestions. You should experiment and try to get a wide sound using your own formulas.
Rod Norman
Engineer
Rod Norman
Engineer
thanks guys. i have always just listened to my favorite albums and kinda copied their panning to the best of my ability. depending on what i'm mixing, i listen to similar music that was mixed well and use it for a reference. no matter how much i try to copy another engineer's mix, i always end up with something that sounds like me. i hear certain frequencies more/less than other people and that makes me mix differently. i'm overall happy with what i can do, i just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing out on something that could take my mixing to the next level. panning is an art, and i've heard music that was taken to the next level by panning alone. i've also heard stuff that sucked badly (to me) because the panning was awful. i still have a hard time listening to some of the Beatles mixes and even Jimi Hendrix because of the panning. i have to listen in mono to pay attention to the music and appreciate it.....but that might just by my OCD.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I think it is !
R
RAMI
Guest
Many of those "stereo" recordings were meant to be listened to in mono, and I do prefer many of them in mono. I think what they did with a lot of them, when stereo started becoming popular, is they just took what they had access to, which was usually just 2 tracks, and panned one track left and the other right. This is why you often have something like back vocals and a tamborine on one side, and everything else on the other.
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
I've seen that image before. Does anyone know who the producer and band are in that instance?
My usual rules of thumb are: the more important something is, the closer to the center it should be. Unless there are two copies of that same thing, they they should be panned to +/- 80% or more.
So lead vocals are pretty much dead center. Major harmonies get out as far as 15%. Double tracked guitars are 80-90%. Etc. This is all in service of the idea that everything should have it's own space, more or less, but if something is important it should be audible in both headphones.
Muddy T-Bone
New member
What Rami said. I do what MJB does.
garryknight
New member
Interesting that no one has mentioned mixing orchestral music, eg a movie backing track. I would have thought it might work best placing each instrument more or less where it would sit in the orchestra. But I wonder if composers of this kind of music even do this at all.
MrWrenchey
New member
Probably because the original post was about double tracked guitars and not cellos.
i wasn't asking about guitar panning only, sorry if i came off that way. i was really interested in panning every instrument, the guitar panning was just an example of what i was talking about.
years ago i read books about both mixing and mastering and although they were helpful, i feel that mixing modern music is an ever changing thing and i wanted to keep up with the times. i came up in the 80's, so i naturally love a huge production, lots of tracks and plenty o' reverb. but if i mix anything that way i get a huge thumbs down from most younger people that hear the mix. everything nowadays seems overly compressed and dry and panning really doesn't mean much.
i always check my mixes in mono (a trick from the mixing books) so that i can hear any phasing issues and levels being wrong. and yes, levels in stereo can be wrong in mono. panning is another thing that effects the mix levels when listening in mono. mixing is truly and art that not everyone can do....and i included myself in the pile of possible non-mixing guys. i'm not afraid to learn new things...but i don't have to like it. lol.
i just thought it would be nice to hear from some engineers here on what they do to get the panning right.
years ago i read books about both mixing and mastering and although they were helpful, i feel that mixing modern music is an ever changing thing and i wanted to keep up with the times. i came up in the 80's, so i naturally love a huge production, lots of tracks and plenty o' reverb. but if i mix anything that way i get a huge thumbs down from most younger people that hear the mix. everything nowadays seems overly compressed and dry and panning really doesn't mean much.
i always check my mixes in mono (a trick from the mixing books) so that i can hear any phasing issues and levels being wrong. and yes, levels in stereo can be wrong in mono. panning is another thing that effects the mix levels when listening in mono. mixing is truly and art that not everyone can do....and i included myself in the pile of possible non-mixing guys. i'm not afraid to learn new things...but i don't have to like it. lol.
i just thought it would be nice to hear from some engineers here on what they do to get the panning right.