gain staging

[daav]

Looking for some pointers here, because like many, i recently started to fix my gain staging from the "as hot as possible without clipping" world.

Most of my tracking is totally dry through a DMP3 and into a layla 24/96 (tracked at 24/44.1) into Cubase SX. I am trying to track at -20 to -18, but i find that monitoring the signal, it sounds better at -12, -16, and so i have a tendancy to push it. Looking for feedback on whether this is compeltely off base.

i find vocals come out pretty well, i get a clear track and have good headroom for compression and boosting when mixing.

with mic'd electric guitar though, i feel like i am struggling. I play a les paul studio and strat through a blues deluxe amp (speaker in an ISO box). My mic of choice for this lately is an EV RE27 (sounds awesome). i find that with the amp turned up to the point where i like it (for the most recent tune, that edge where light strumming is clean, but any attack on the strings starts to break up nicely) it feels like i can hear the tone going away when i turn down the pre to get levels in the -16 to -20 range.
Any thoughts? Do i need to put some compression through the input chain? Go back to the SM57? Track louder and compress later? The RE27 is a big mic and there is not a lot of room to pull it back in the iso box, so that is sort of out.

Anyway thanks for all the input you might have.

daav

 

[Farview]

The -18dbFS thing is about average level, not peak level.

When setting the level for guitar, hit a chord and let it ring. Set the level of the sustain to -18dbfs.

With voice, have the singer hold a note, set the level to -18dbfs.

The peak meters in cubase will bounce up and down and seem to spend a lot of time above -18, but that is normal.

With things that have no sustain, like drums and other percussion, just keep the peaks below -6dbfs.

 

[stash98]

Im usually peaking at -3db in Cubase for guitars and vocals in a 24 bit environment. -6 is fine really, in 24 bit world you can push it a little, which is why I usually peak at -3.

So you are saying to strum a chord and then adjust your preamp gain so the chord rings out at around -18?

 

[TexRoadkill]

24 bit world you can push it a little, which is why I usually peak at -3.

The opposite is true.

You have a lower noise floor with 24bit and therefore can record things lower without worrying about added noise but the ceiling for all digital audio is exactly the same. There is no room to "push it" with any type of digital signal.

Daav, sounds like you need to just turn up your monitor volume.

 

[Massive Master]

The opposite is true.

Simply and effectively stated. The added bits are there so they don't have to be used - Not to overdrive your input chain (and believe me - If you're running signals that are dancing around -3dBFS, you're overdriving your input chain and potentially losing out on an awful lot of quality, clarity and focus - Unless it's just a rare and occasional transient peak).

 

[stash98]

Yeah, I just talked with a friend of mine who engineers a lot of records. He has one on billboard top 25 right now which is cool.

Anyway, he said that peaking at -3 is not too hot. The only thing to watch out for is to give yourself headroom for your plugins. Im usually peaking at -3 on guitars, which I don't do much processing to Just H/P and L/P.

But I see what you guys are saying, and im usually peaking at -6, and that is only peaking not constant, so average is lower then that. So im bascially doing what you guys are saying it appears.


I reread my last post, and I said that im usually peaking at -3, which I think is a LIE!! hehe..not enough sleep. I had just tracked some guitars, and like I said I get them in a little hotter because I don't do much processing to them.

 

[Farview]

If you are talking about distorted guitars, you are still running things a bit hot.

Like I said before, the sustain of the chord should be about -18dbfs. That's line level. Distorted guitars have very little dynamic range, so the peaks will be closer to the average level. If you are hitting -6dbfs, you are overdriving the preamp and the rest of the analog chain.

If you are talking about clean or acoustic guitar, you are doing just fine.

 

[daav]

Thanks everyone, the examples cited makes me feel a good bit more confident about what i am doing. I think my evels are probabaly pretty good.

I might look into one of those load things for the amp to let me turn that sucker up a bit more and not have the speaker driven quite as loud.

Daav.

 

[stash98]

If you are talking about distorted guitars, you are still running things a bit hot.

Like I said before, the sustain of the chord should be about -18dbfs. That's line level. Distorted guitars have very little dynamic range, so the peaks will be closer to the average level. If you are hitting -6dbfs, you are overdriving the preamp and the rest of the analog chain.

If you are talking about clean or acoustic guitar, you are doing just fine.

yep these are clean. Memoryman laden, but clean guitars

 

[Massive Master]

Anyway, he said that peaking at -3 is not too hot.

(A) I'd still disagree. There is easily measurable distortion driving a preamp that hard.

HOWEVER:

(B) If the guy is using the absolute top-o'-the-line gear that's usually employed in the average Billboard hit - Exceptionally high-quality gear will generally have a lot more headroom. The distortion and loss of clarity & focus will be much less nasty on a Flamingo than on a Eureka or something similar.

That doesn't make it better to record hotter - It just means there's less damage. All you have to do is make a few recordings at "normal" levels and I can all but guarantee that you'll try to never cross -12 again.

Still, just using simple logic, there is *no* good reason to track with levels that hot in digital - Take two signals that peak at -3dBFS at the same time and you clip. Do that with 20 tracks going at the same time...

0dBVU is 0dBVU for a reason - It's been that way for over 60 years. Digital didn't change that - It was designed to work around it.

 

[bennychico11]

0dBVU is 0dBVU for a reason - It's been that way for over 60 years. Digital didn't change that - It was designed to work around it.

Amen........

 

[Farview]

Here is something that I posted on another site. I just don't feel like typing it again.

Analog and digital have two different design pholosophies built around two different standards.

Preamps are analog, they are designed to be at their best at line level. That makes sense because that is the standard for that type of device. Most preamps have enough headroom to handle transients well over +18. But the fact of the matter is, having 0.03% thd on a signal that lasts less than 100th of a second isn't anything to worry about.

In fact, peaking just under 0dbFS isn't that big of a deal either. The problem comes when people don't realize that there is a big difference between having the signal from a snare drum peak at -1dbFS and having a square wave from a synth peak at -1dbFS. The loads on the preamp (and the rest of the analog chain) are completely different.

Therefore, we have to revert back to the standard that the entire analog chain was designed around. 0dbVU, an average signal level, not peak.

As far as AD converters go, I'm sure that all but the cheapest (and probably most prevelant) are pretty linear up to full scale. The conversion process itself doesn't care what the level is as long as it's below full scale.

Even though digital converters don't care about your level (as long as it's below 0dbFS), there are other consequences to recording hot at just turning down the fader:


1. The faders are more sensitive around unity on analog mixers, digital mixers, and control surfaces. Getting the fader out of this range makes it harder to make small adjustments to level.

2. Some plugins do not run at 32 bit float. You can distort these.

3. Most compressor plugins only have a threshold control that goes up to zero. If the compressor has a soft knee, you might not be able to raise the threshold to get the amount of reduction you want.


In short, there is no reason to record that hot, other than to fill some sort of urge to hit the more obvious target (0dbfs) instead of the harder to visualize "averaging around -18dbfs or so".

 

[BigRay]

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