Gain in compression

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
My lack of experience here is sure to get some eye rolls, but I'm wondering something about adding gain within the compressor VST...

When I do this, the compressor reacts to its OWN gain increase and therefore compresses more. For example, where i'd be getting 3db gain reduction leaving the makeup gain at 0, i will get 5db reduction increasing the gain by 2db.

Why, then, even have this option? How is adding gain within the VST different than increasing that tracks volume? In what types of circumstances do you guys add/remove makeup gain within your vst's? And why the hell does my DAW stock compressor have vocal presets ("male pop", for example) with an automatic +25db of gain? I know it's a rough guess since it's a preset...but does anyone really add 25db makeup gain to anything?

Hopefully someone can start clearing this stuff up for me a bit...thanks!
 
That's weird, and counter to the way that I've seen compressors work. Which compressor are you using, and in which DAW?
 
It's the stock compressor in Studio One Pro 2. So....it should NOT be reacting to the added gain, correct?
 
That's what I would think, I can't say that any of the compressors that I've used have had the makeup gain affect the compression detector circuit. It could be either a quirk of that particular compressor, or something kooky in your track routing (some sort of feedback loop maybe?)

Can you try the same setup with a different compressor and see if it does the same thing?
 
I don't have any other vst's that allow make-up gain, i don't think. I have some very basic free ones in addition to the stock. the stock is the only one with an abundance of controls.

The route is simple, it's just an insert on a track which then goes to the master fader, which has nothing but EQ. I'll double check this weekend, but I'm pretty sure that makeup gain is causing more reduction. I remember having to constantly move the fader around because the gain knob was causing too much reduction. (the irony)
 
mjbphotos said:
Usually it is make up gain - the gain is supplied after the compression.
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Right. OK, i'll take some screen shots this weekend if i catch it doing it. I swear it does though. I completely understand any eye rolls here though...sounds like a silly thing to be questioning.
 
My first guess would be you're somehow working with a compressor that has an "input" gain stage (which as you drive it harder is going to make it compress more), and probably an output/make-up gain stage, which is what you should be using to boost the output from the compressor.

Of course, I haven't used Studio One in around 5 years when I think it was first coming out, and I was very uneducated at the time, so I'm not sure what your compressor looks like. Screenshots would be awesome!
 
Have a Google for kjaerhus (sp?) Classic series vsts. They're great freebies that have been discontinued. I think that there may still be a host on acoustica that has them in a zip file. The classic compressor has all of the usual compressor controls, including make up gain.. That plugin was where I cut my teeth in compression (and I'm still learning several years later!)
 
MrWrenchey said:
My first guess would be you're somehow working with a compressor that has an "input" gain stage (which as you drive it harder is going to make it compress more), and probably an output/make-up gain stage, which is what you should be using to boost the output from the compressor.

Of course, I haven't used Studio One in around 5 years when I think it was first coming out, and I was very uneducated at the time, so I'm not sure what your compressor looks like. Screenshots would be awesome!
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That'd be my guess too. Like an 1176'ish plug? - no threshold there, just an input drive pot, then an output trim.
Never heard of 'make up (output) feeding the comp.

edit/add
FWIW, I typically prefer to not even worry about the make up level on a comp. (Just leave it at 'zero in most cases.
If there's lots of reduction going on, maybe then it makes sense. Or A/B' reality check situation -on a master comp- or anywhere you want to compare carefully.. Sure, it's there to use if you like.
Generally.. for me on a track for example, it's put it in / find something that's working, but then continue with the level tweaks on the track fader.
 
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Does the track you're compressing have large variations in level? It could be that volume/level differences between sections are making the compressor work really hard in one place, and not much in others. If you are tweaking the make up gain to compensate it could make things look/sound wonky elsewhere and make compression seem more idiosyncratic than it already is.

I remember I was caught out by that a few times when I was getting to grips with compression...
 
Jake_JW said:
Does the track you're compressing have large variations in level? It could be that volume/level differences between sections are making the compressor work really hard in one place, and not much in others. If you are tweaking the make up gain to compensate it could make things look/sound wonky elsewhere and make compression seem more idiosyncratic than it already is.

I remember I was caught out by that a few times when I was getting to grips with compression...
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Nah, not any more than expected from a rock vocal. I first edit the volume manually anyway. Once all the phrases are leveled to my liking, I compress... I try to have no more than 5-6db reduction at peaks...but when I crank that gain knob, it'll start jumping to 8-9db, whatever, on peaks.

If I can't figure it out this weekend, I'll get some screens up. thnx!
 
Fair enough man, I still get caught out by this occasionally, years later (mostly when I'm mixing later than I should be).

Also worth looking at some of the Bootsy plugins (Thrillseeker LA/Density MkIII) if you want something that behaves more typically. They served me well for years...
 
Yeah, those Variety Of Sound plugs sound really great for freebies, although some of them are resource hogs. As far as the Reaper freebie pack, they sound good but I always found their bare-bones user interfaces to be confusing, especially when trying to learn how to use the various types of effects. The Classic Series isn't going to win any awards for sound quality (they sound good but not great), but their straight-forward classic controls make them great learning tools.

Anyways, I'm curious what's going on with your compression here. Something fishy is going on, and we'll get to the bottom of it.
 
What exact VST do you have?
Seems covered but yeah...Some compressors have fixed threshold so you balance things with input gain for more/less compression and output gain for more/less volume.
Others have variable threshold and output (makeup) gain. That's to compensate for the loss of volume through compression.
 
I use Studio One 2 Professional exclusively. There are two gains in the stock compressor: "Input gain" and "Gain".

The "input gain" is just what it sounds like: extra gain on the way into the compressor. It will affect the level of compression because you're adding more signal before it hits the compressor.

"Gain" is regular makeup gain. It adds gain *after* the compressor. In no way does it affect the level of compression. This is what you should be using.

Good news: your compressor is fine and the world is right again.
 
Brian Miller said:
I use Studio One 2 Professional exclusively. There are two gains in the stock compressor: "Input gain" and "Gain".

The "input gain" is just what it sounds like: extra gain on the way into the compressor. It will affect the level of compression because you're adding more signal before it hits the compressor.

"Gain" is regular makeup gain. It adds gain *after* the compressor. In no way does it affect the level of compression. This is what you should be using.

Good news: your compressor is fine and the world is right again.
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There we go... thanks. is it common to have a gain before the compressor, but within it? I must be using this one at times. Thanks for clearing that up

Also, any particular circumstances you use the input gain for? just curious. and how do you like the makeup gain the stock compressor adds after? do you find yourself using this either? the male-pop preset automatically adds 25db in makeup gain.
 
andrushkiwt said:
Also, any particular circumstances you use the input gain for? just curious. and how do you like the makeup gain the stock compressor adds after? do you find yourself using this either? the male-pop preset automatically adds 25db in makeup gain.
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I never use the input gain. You shouldn't need to if you have gain staged your tracking properly. In other words, the source that you are compressing should have been recorded at a reasonable level for tracking (usually somewhere in the -12db range).

I use the makeup gain for tracks that I'm compressing as overall level control, and sometimes when I'm using the compressor as an 'effect', but not when I'm using the compressor just to tame transients.

Quick tutorial for makeup gain: If your compressor is producing an average of 3db of gain reduction, you should add 3db of makeup gain. If you ever get 25db of gain reduction, you're doing it wrong. You really shouldn't ever be compressing a track for more than 8db of gain reduction (depending on the type of track and the song). At that point, you're better off chaining multiple compressors together, each doing less work.

It's especially important to use the makeup gain when you want to A/B the effect of the compressor by turning it on and off, so that the volume of the track doesn't change as you A/B. That way you hear what the compressor is actually doing, and your ears aren't deceived by level changes.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: By the way, the compressor presets in Studio One are really wacky. Stay away from them unless you want to murder your tracks.
 
What ^^^ BM said.

I use GComp, pretty much exclusively now, and that has In/Out Gain. On other Comps In is sometimes called Pre. It's just basically before and after the compressor.

I've never needed to touch the In Gain. Out is useful, sometimes. :thumbs up:
 
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