Formal Ghosts

[robgreen]

Howdy, I've completely lost perspective on this and could really do with some fresh ears. I came up with an arrangement without too much trouble, but the lyrics have been a complete pain in the arse. I wrote and binned two sets - this is the third and a halfth attempt, and I'm not even sure I like these much better. Nevertheless, I can't face writing yet another batch.

I also agonised about the lead vocals - whether to play it straight or a bit more 'out there'. It's maybe a mishmash of the two, I dunno.

I'm a bit fatigued by the whole thing as it stands, so not sure whether this current mix is close or way off. Some feedback would be great. Thanks

 

[Phrasemaker]

Hi, the mix overall sounds pretty good, no rough edges and a reasonably refined feel to it. Where it falls short for me is that there is little to make me want to really engage with the track. I kind of wanted a some part of the lyrical content to pan in from somewhere with a wall of layered sound telling me something about the subject that I could easily engage with. The track itself doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles so the vocal is probably going to be what pulls a listener. I'm not being critical about the track as the author has the choice of what the track comprises of and I don't see anything wrong with what you have musically as you must have had something in mind to aim for. If it were mine I'd get some interesting things happening with how the vocals are deployed, I'm sure you have a box of tricks so perhaps have a play and see just how interesting you can make what you have.

Regards

Tim

 

[TripleM]

I thought it was a decent song. Well performed.

The vocal is getting covered up a little bit. There is a synth part that's stepping on it a bit. You might be able to fix it by simply turning it up.

Some things have too much reverb. The reggae guitar in the middle break is an example. There is a guitar riff with a lot of reverb - but I'd leave it that way for the riff. That sounded cool. I would dry up the lead vocal.

The mix in general is a little "small." For a song like this, I'd want some "big" drums, "big" synths, etc.

 

[STAT1STICK]

I like the song a lot. It's got a cool "driving at night" sound. The only things I could gripe about would be that the kick drum is a little boomy. Just just barely. I would have liked to hear some more highs from the snare. Maybe some reverb on it, too. And the main vocals could use a boost in the high-mids area. But, then again, it could just be my ears. Good tune!

 

[robgreen]

Hi, the mix overall sounds pretty good, no rough edges and a reasonably refined feel to it. Where it falls short for me is that there is little to make me want to really engage with the track. I kind of wanted a some part of the lyrical content to pan in from somewhere with a wall of layered sound telling me something about the subject that I could easily engage with. The track itself doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles so the vocal is probably going to be what pulls a listener. I'm not being critical about the track as the author has the choice of what the track comprises of and I don't see anything wrong with what you have musically as you must have had something in mind to aim for. If it were mine I'd get some interesting things happening with how the vocals are deployed, I'm sure you have a box of tricks so perhaps have a play and see just how interesting you can make what you have.

Regards

Tim

Hi, thanks a lot for the listen and your thoughts Tim. I've been so ambivalent about this melody for a while that I keep picking it up and putting it down without ever really being satisfied with it. I agree with what you're saying about the vocals and I think the interest dips a little in the second verse. I've got an idea that I was originally thinking of using on the vocal throughout, but might work a bit more sparsely applied. Cheers

I thought it was a decent song. Well performed.

The vocal is getting covered up a little bit. There is a synth part that's stepping on it a bit. You might be able to fix it by simply turning it up.

Some things have too much reverb. The reggae guitar in the middle break is an example. There is a guitar riff with a lot of reverb - but I'd leave it that way for the riff. That sounded cool. I would dry up the lead vocal.

The mix in general is a little "small." For a song like this, I'd want some "big" drums, "big" synths, etc.

Thanks a lot trip. I completely agree that the mix sounds a bit small. And flat. It probably contributes to the issue that Tim mentions that it doesn't punch enough to sustain the interest. I think as well as overdoing the reverb, I cut too much air out of the mix. I've just done/updated the link with a really quick remix to hopefully address this in part (although it's only a headphone one as it's late here), but I've a feeling the mix needs a proper overhaul. I'll get working on it over the next few days. Thanks again

I like the song a lot. It's got a cool "driving at night" sound. The only things I could gripe about would be that the kick drum is a little boomy. Just just barely. I would have liked to hear some more highs from the snare. Maybe some reverb on it, too. And the main vocals could use a boost in the high-mids area. But, then again, it could just be my ears. Good tune!

Cheers Stat1, that's really good of you to say. I had the mood of stuff like DJ Shadow and London Calling era Clash in my head as reference points when I was working on this - and I tend to associate them both with that kind of night time driving feel, so it's great that it came through! I take on board your comments about the drums and the vocals and I'll bear them in mind on the remix. I felt they sounded kind of wimpy in that first mix, so they could do definitely do with something. Cheers man

 

[Llarion]

Howdy, I've completely lost perspective on this and could really do with some fresh ears. I came up with an arrangement without too much trouble, but the lyrics have been a complete pain in the arse. I wrote and binned two sets - this is the third and a halfth attempt, and I'm not even sure I like these much better. Nevertheless, I can't face writing yet another batch.

I also agonised about the lead vocals - whether to play it straight or a bit more 'out there'. It's maybe a mishmash of the two, I dunno.

I'm a bit fatigued by the whole thing as it stands, so not sure whether this current mix is close or way off. Some feedback would be great. Thanks

Since this forum is more about mix than songwriting, I'll leave it at "the lyrics seem fine"... The first thing mix-wise that struck me is that the drums are very upfront and dry. Since everything else has a reverb curve, it's a little disjointed to have the drums so stark. Plus, they are a little big in the mix. I think the lead vox could be a little bigger, and I might try moving the organ part off to one side farther and back it off a little so it's a more subtle touch. Cool, compelling tune though, very interesting; a bit moody and dark.

 

[robgreen]

Since this forum is more about mix than songwriting, I'll leave it at "the lyrics seem fine"... The first thing mix-wise that struck me is that the drums are very upfront and dry. Since everything else has a reverb curve, it's a little disjointed to have the drums so stark. Plus, they are a little big in the mix. I think the lead vox could be a little bigger, and I might try moving the organ part off to one side farther and back it off a little so it's a more subtle touch. Cool, compelling tune though, very interesting; a bit moody and dark.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts Llarion. Looks like I pushed the drums a bit far as they were originally a little small - doing a quick headphone mix update, I thought there was a chance that I could knock some things out of kilter! Re. the lyrics, I'm happy with feedback on any aspect of the song or recording - I don't think they're too far off, but there are a few clumsy phrases that I'd like to change round a bit.

You're right that the vocals could be bigger too - I had a few technical problems when recording them at the weekend, so the recording quality isn't that great. I think they could do with being sung a bit more assertively too, so I'll re-track once I've tweaked the lyrics.

Moody and dark's all good with me. Thanks a lot for taking the time man

 

[dobro]

Balance issues:

* Organ on the right's too big and too wet.

* Opening synth sound? is too quiet.

Spectrals:

* Parts of it need clarifying. Less low mid? More distortion?

Atmosphere:

* Cool!

Lyrics:

Dunno bout lyrics till I hear 'em ten times usually, but my initial impression is that this set are coming more from the head than the gut. FWIW, I've had this experience: song doesn't quite make it, but I keep it in a folder cuz I like the sound of it. Pull it out months or years later and a new set of words with tons of juice arrives like a storm and suddenly the whole thing rocks. In other words, if it's a pain in the arse, put it down for a while.

"Third and a halfth" - nice...lol

 

[Tadpui]

I like the song quite a bit, it has a cool atmosphere. I can't make out many of the lyrics so they seem fine

The vocals definitely need to stand out more. They need both a bump in volume and to have some of the other instruments cleared out of the way via EQ. You could probably back off on the reverb on most everything except the vocals. I like the feel that the reverb gives, but it seems to be muddying things up a little too much. It's tough to strike a balance between atmosphere and mush, I'm struggling with it myself.

The little reggae break is cool too, I'm always a fan of jacking around with structure and variation.

Overall, I say good job though. I just like the feel of the song.

 

[robgreen]

Balance issues:

* Organ on the right's too big and too wet.

* Opening synth sound? is too quiet.

Spectrals:

* Parts of it need clarifying. Less low mid? More distortion?

Atmosphere:

* Cool!

Lyrics:

Dunno bout lyrics till I hear 'em ten times usually, but my initial impression is that this set are coming more from the head than the gut. FWIW, I've had this experience: song doesn't quite make it, but I keep it in a folder cuz I like the sound of it. Pull it out months or years later and a new set of words with tons of juice arrives like a storm and suddenly the whole thing rocks. In other words, if it's a pain in the arse, put it down for a while.

"Third and a halfth" - nice...lol

Thanks a lot dobro. I think you're dead right on the lyrics. I think I forced them to a point where they sound exactly what they are. ie. forced. I've been over in Liverpool today and a good first verse came to me as I was wandering round without really trying. If a second one beams in by osmosis too, I think I'm in business . I like the instrumental version of the mix, but the lyrics and my attempts to sing them, drag the whole thing down. It's so much easier putting words to music than music to words...

I hear you on the organ too...again I think a symptom of adding words to an instrumental mix, as the organ's about the right volume without vocals.

What do you mean by 'spectrals' by the way? Is that the backing vocals in the chorus or something else? Thanks muchly for your ears and thoughts as always.

I like the song quite a bit, it has a cool atmosphere. I can't make out many of the lyrics so they seem fine

The vocals definitely need to stand out more. They need both a bump in volume and to have some of the other instruments cleared out of the way via EQ. You could probably back off on the reverb on most everything except the vocals. I like the feel that the reverb gives, but it seems to be muddying things up a little too much. It's tough to strike a balance between atmosphere and mush, I'm struggling with it myself.

The little reggae break is cool too, I'm always a fan of jacking around with structure and variation.

Overall, I say good job though. I just like the feel of the song.

Thanks to you too Tadpui. I'm completely with you on atmosphere v mush. I think it's a song that calls for more reverb than just to knit the parts together, but it's a fine balance. Re. the vocals, I think that once I've established a set of lyrics that I can hear back without cringing, I'll be able to bring myself to mix them a little clearer

Glad that little break section works - white reggae's the finest of fine lines to tread and I just wanted to add a bit of texture and bring in a touch of something I'd never done in a mix before. There's a lot of repetition throughout the song and I like to try and bring phrases that have already been played, but in new guises - so that break is alongside a bassline that's played throughout the verse and the main guitar line.

Cheers for your nice words about the feel too. Love the song in your sig btw

 

[rayc]

It sounded good on my work laptop. I'll give a proper listen when I get home this arvo.

 

[robgreen]

It sounded good on my work laptop. I'll give a proper listen when I get home this arvo.

Thanks ray. I'm usually happy with the song but still unsure about the mix balance when I post stuff on here, so this time around I wasn't sure whether to put on something that I was so ambivalent about on both fronts. Then I thought about how I always enjoy watching how your stuff develops from when you first upload something unfinished to its final mix state, and I figured that I would stick it up at the point it was at and see where it went.

I don't think it's there yet, but it has potential.

 

[Greg_L]

Howdy, I've completely lost perspective on this and could really do with some fresh ears. I came up with an arrangement without too much trouble, but the lyrics have been a complete pain in the arse. I wrote and binned two sets - this is the third and a halfth attempt, and I'm not even sure I like these much better. Nevertheless, I can't face writing yet another batch.

I also agonised about the lead vocals - whether to play it straight or a bit more 'out there'. It's maybe a mishmash of the two, I dunno.

I'm a bit fatigued by the whole thing as it stands, so not sure whether this current mix is close or way off. Some feedback would be great. Thanks

I think it's pretty full and rich overall. There are three things that stick out to me as "off"...

1) The right side organ is a little overpowering and maybe a little too wet. I'd like it centered a little more, dried up a bit, and dropped down into the mix better. Great sound, just reel it in a little.
2) The vocals are also too wet with the verb. Makes em sound cloudy. I don't like that. The level and performance is fine with me, I'd just like them drier.
3) The ending. It seems like an afterthought. Like you didn't know what to do to end the song, so you just cut this and cut that and left the shakers. It's fine, not that big a deal, but I like endings that are an obvious ending and not like you just ran out of ideas.

But other than that, I liked it. Love that intro guitar, love the bass. Love the little interludes when the vocals drop out. Cool song..

 

[fritsthegirl]

I like this. Esp. (really) like the playing & sound you got on the guitar/s and piano in this tune. I got nothing to gripe about, except the weather, it's too cold. Sounds like a sweet Rob tune to me, and as always with your songs, it gets better each time I listen to it.

Maybe there is something about the vocals - but I can't say with any certainty that this is something I would have picked up on myself or I'm just chiming in on what you might have hinted at yourself about not feeling entirely happy with the lyrics. For me the performance flows well, the lyrics are interesting, make sense, sound good in place. Liverpool as inspiration aye. Can't wait to hear what that place inspires. (I've never even been so I don't even know why I'm being so belligerent. )

Nice tune.

 

[rayc]

I like it. maybe a little tweakinh here and there with panning balance and such but it's really good.

 

[Manslick]

The mix is pretty good to my ear, though the words are hard to make out. This reminds me of your first song that I struggled to understand. It was... umm something about the sea? Oh yeah the oddest sea.
This reminds me of Pink Floyd too.

 

[dobro]

What do you mean by 'spectrals' by the way?

EQ and distortion.

 

[robgreen]

Sorry for slow replies, I've been back at my folks all weekend.

I think it's pretty full and rich overall. There are three things that stick out to me as "off"...

1) The right side organ is a little overpowering and maybe a little too wet. I'd like it centered a little more, dried up a bit, and dropped down into the mix better. Great sound, just reel it in a little.
2) The vocals are also too wet with the verb. Makes em sound cloudy. I don't like that. The level and performance is fine with me, I'd just like them drier.
3) The ending. It seems like an afterthought. Like you didn't know what to do to end the song, so you just cut this and cut that and left the shakers. It's fine, not that big a deal, but I like endings that are an obvious ending and not like you just ran out of ideas.

But other than that, I liked it. Love that intro guitar, love the bass. Love the little interludes when the vocals drop out. Cool song..

Awesome, thanks Greg. A couple of others mentioned the verb on the organ - I didn't add any extra, so I'll mess about with the ADSR settings and see how it sounds reeled in and a little lower in the mix. It seemed kind of at the right volume before I added vocals, but does kind of dominate as is.

New vocals coming up too, so I'll mess about with the reverb on them too.

You got me on the ending though. For some reason I had a mental block on the song coming in just short of 3 minutes at one point, and added a couple of bars at the end to get it over that mark. Odd hang-up I know - I'll get shut of it on the next mix.

Thanks a ton for the thoughts and kind words man

I like this. Esp. (really) like the playing & sound you got on the guitar/s and piano in this tune. I got nothing to gripe about, except the weather, it's too cold. Sounds like a sweet Rob tune to me, and as always with your songs, it gets better each time I listen to it.

Maybe there is something about the vocals - but I can't say with any certainty that this is something I would have picked up on myself or I'm just chiming in on what you might have hinted at yourself about not feeling entirely happy with the lyrics. For me the performance flows well, the lyrics are interesting, make sense, sound good in place. Liverpool as inspiration aye. Can't wait to hear what that place inspires. (I've never even been so I don't even know why I'm being so belligerent. )

Nice tune.

Ace, thanks a lot Trish. The weather has been a bit crappy hasn't it - although this afternoon I was at the top of a hill near my parents house and could see Blackpool in one direction and Liverpool in the other which was pretty ace. Cool, clear autumn days are alright by me. I grew up fairly close to Liverpool, so Liverpool as inspiration's as much about being back somewhere I went pretty regularly as a kid as anything else...and having a day to let my mind wander too.

Glad it works for you. I like the piano too - I wanted it as a chiming texture, rather than something out in front, and I think it does that. I've got some replacement lyrics in both verses now where they were making me grimace, so hopefully I'll get the updates done over the next few days.

Cheers again

 

[robgreen]

I like it. maybe a little tweakinh here and there with panning balance and such but it's really good.

Cool, thanks a lot for listening back in ray. I'll think about the panning when I'm doing the updates

The mix is pretty good to my ear, though the words are hard to make out. This reminds me of your first song that I struggled to understand. It was... umm something about the sea? Oh yeah the oddest sea.
This reminds me of Pink Floyd too.

Thanks Manslick. I think the words might become clearer on the new mix, now that I'm a bit happier with them. It's always hard to tell whether others might find words hard to make out or not when you know/wrote them so that's useful to know. I'm not always too fussed about perfect clarity on all the lyrics and in this song I wanted the vocals to be a part of the mix rather than on top of it - but I think I can get a better balance.

The Pink Floyd comparisons do come up regularly, which always surprises me as they're not a band I ever really listen to. I think I like them more in theory than practice, so maybe I'm subconsciously trying to re-write them how I wish they sounded

Thanks for your thoughts

EQ and distortion.

Ah, gotcha. I googled the term and just got results back for a band of the same name. Thanks dobro

 

[VomitHatSteve]

Cool song, rob.

Just a few minor nits stuck out to me. There did seem to be a bit much reverb on the lead vox (just a tad), and they also seemed a little dark. Maybe it could use some more high end?
I'm also not much a fan of the organ, but then again I rarely am.