Form VS Tone - Light, Muttley

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TelePaul

TelePaul

J to the R O C
Hey guys. I was wondering how form affects tone with guitars...i.e, do things like fret inlays affect tone, body inlays (like that PRS Dragon) bolt-neck vs set neck (though I think we've covered that), bosy size and shape (especially those pointy guitars) finish, extra routing....

Basically how much do looks effect tone?
 
What TelePaul really wants to know is if he should add a huge phallus to his guitar, like Prince has.
 
Zaphod B said:
What TelePaul really wants to know is if he should add a huge phallus to his guitar, like Prince has.

Nah, been there, done that....now all I need to figure out is the chords for 'Little Red Corvette' :)
 
TelePaul said:
Hey guys. I was wondering how form affects tone with guitars...i.e, do things like fret inlays affect tone, body inlays (like that PRS Dragon) bolt-neck vs set neck (though I think we've covered that), bosy size and shape (especially those pointy guitars) finish, extra routing....

Basically how much do looks effect tone?


In my opinion, adding a set of strings will affect the tone one thousand percent! ;)
 
I don't think pointy shaped guitars sound intrinsically worse than regular Strat shapes, etc.

However, the people who buy them tend to be retards who can't play, therefore any sound you are likely to hear produced using a BC Rich is liable to be shit.

There. I said it. Pointy guitars are ridiculous. Have some respect, people - the guitar is an instrument. Go to a piano playing forum; you'll never see questions like "What's the best way to spray-paint flames onto my Steinway for less than a hundred bucks, and will it affect the tone?"
 
32-20-Blues said:
"What's the best way to spray-paint flames onto my Steinway for less than a hundred bucks, and will it affect the tone?"


shure SM57.
 
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 32-20-Blues again." Too true and too funny...

Telepaul, from what I have heard, I think it's a combination of both. The wood that the guitar is made of, the pickup combinations and the neck (set/bolt-on) all affect the tone. BUT, it also has something to do with how you use it, in regards to the way you play it. I'm not a luthier or anything, so don't take my word for it, but that's the jist of what I've heard.
 
20% Pickups, 20% strings, 20% electronics, 15% luck, 20% Blessings of the Guitar God, , 5% wood. :p :D
 
lbanks said:
20% Pickups, 20% strings, 20% electronics, 15% luck, 20% Blessings of the Guitar God, , 5% wood. :p :D


Not quite. You got your percentages off by a bit, but more importantly, you forgot the most important thing. 120% - the hands of the guy playing it. Give Eric Clapton a Silvertone, and he will still sound like Eric.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
TelePaul said:
Hey guys. I was wondering how form affects tone with guitars...i.e, do things like fret inlays affect tone, body inlays (like that PRS Dragon) bolt-neck vs set neck (though I think we've covered that), bosy size and shape (especially those pointy guitars) finish, extra routing....

Basically how much do looks effect tone?


Geeze! you must want me to write a book or something!

Fret inlays - not a damn bit of difference, sound wise.

Body inlays - on a solid body electric, nothing, on a hollow or semi-hollow, not much (probably not perceptible), and on a flat top acoustic, HUGE. I've played the 1,000,000th Martin, and the thing is dead as a doornail. Too much pearl in the body. (of course, that is a rather extreme version of the issue).


I think we've covered the neck thing, but I restate my opinion - I think that on an acoustic the difference is minimal to non-existanct, because so much of the energy of the string is used up moving the top of the guitar. With an electric, I think that what you get is a change in the shape of the note (what synth guys call ADSR - Attack, Decay, Sustain, and Release, though the Release part isn't effected much). The attack bit stays pretty much the same, but the decay and sustain parts can be quite different. Bolt-on necks have a faster decay, and less sustain (on the whole). It also makes bolt-on's SOUND like they have more attack. The rise of the original slope is pretty much the same, but that quick decay emphasizes the beginning of the note. (It's kind of like using a compressor with a slow attack time to emphasize the attack of a kick drum). Set necks kind of fall in the middle, and neck-throughs have the longest decay and sustain. I've made some all mahogany neck-throughs where you almost couldn't make out the attack on the notes. It can be like you are playing legato while picking every note. I didn't like it much, but it made the customers happy. I usually use ash body wings to compensate for that a bit.


Body size matters, body shape doesn't (at least, I don't think it does). To be more specific, body VOLUME and MASS matter, but I've never seen much to suggest that the actual shape of the guitar is all that important. On an acoustic, the volume of the body is the resonant frequency of the guitar, and is also going to define the lowest note the guitar can really produce. On an electric, the volume of the body is kind of acting like a heat sink, sucking out various frequencies and smoothing out the output of the string. The truth is, a raw string sounds pretty unpleasant, and the guitar job is to make it better. You NEED to damp some things. That's what I see the body as doing.

Finish, well, that's a hard one to define. I think nitro sounds a bit more "open," but I'm not sure that it is that big a deal. The main reasons I still use nitro are that; 1) I like the look of it (after a bit of time, it kind of sinks into the pours of the wood, which looks really cool to me), 2) it is very traditional, and guitar players are the most hide bond bunch of..., 3)we run a large repair shop, and we NEED to be able to repair nitro finishes. The idea of spraying more than one kind of finish in our spray booth gives me (and dad, and everyone else in the shop) the heebie jeebies! It's simply not going to happen.


If by extra routing, you mean chambering an electric, I think it is mostly an issue of ADSR again. As you remove wood, you make the "plates" thiner, which means they vibrate more. Vibration sucks up energy much faster, but it can also setup a resonance which can add energy back. To be honest, my favorite guitars that I've made have all been solid, but I LOVE the extra money I get for chambering guitars, so I'm always happy to do it (plus, doing it well is kind of tricky - at least on my guitars - so it has a great deal of craftsmanship ego involved with it, which is the main reason most of us do this anyway, you know?)


Hey, next time, why don't you ask a nice general question so I can expound a bit, eh? :eek: :rolleyes:


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light you KNOW you love it. Thanks alot for that, the most interesting bit was definetely the inlays on the Martin...crazy. And the Mass and volume is also good to know. Thanks alot!
 
32-20-Blues said:
Go to a piano playing forum; you'll never see questions like "What's the best way to spray-paint flames onto my Steinway for less than a hundred bucks, and will it affect the tone?"
You're forgetting Liberace. I think he would have done anything to a piano - and I mean anything! :eek:
 
Light said:
Geeze! you must want me to write a book or something!

......................(superb dissertation snipped).....................

Hey, next time, why don't you ask a nice general question so I can expound a bit, eh? :eek: :rolleyes:
Light, that was excellent. We discussed some of the same issues in the "set vs bolt-on" thread a few weeks ago but just now you gave a broad-ranging, comprehensive, and comprehensible explanation.

Thanks! :)
 
hey ??

32-20-Blues said:
I don't think pointy shaped guitars sound intrinsically worse than regular Strat shapes, etc.

However, the people who buy them tend to be retards who can't play, therefore any sound you are likely to hear produced using a BC Rich is liable to be shit.

There. I said it. Pointy guitars are ridiculous. Have some respect, people - the guitar is an instrument. Go to a piano playing forum; you'll never see questions like "What's the best way to spray-paint flames onto my Steinway for less than a hundred bucks, and will it affect the tone?"
i have a bc rich .... a red bich :cool:
 
red bich

but my bich just hangs on the wall ....... i might have giged w/ it 3x ?? nothing wrong w/ it ....... just something i had to have years ago ........ so i can see your point :cool:
 
dave..... said:
but my bich just hangs on the wall ....... i might have giged w/ it 3x ?? nothing wrong w/ it ....... just something i had to have years ago ........ so i can see your point :cool:

Hey, it's cool, if it works for you, don't feel like you have to justify your guitars to me. (Believe me - I've played some shit :D ). I just like guitars to be treated seriously, not like props.

Then again, if you're gigging as opposed to recording, I suppose props have their place too.
 
I've had a BC Rich Bich, Warlock, and Beast...and also a Jackson Kelly. All extremely pointy and they were all bought for looking cool when gigging.
When I decided that function and comfort were alot more important I got rid of all of them. :p

The only pointy thing that I still enjoy is the headstock on my Jacksons.
 
props ??

32-20-Blues said:
Hey, it's cool, if it works for you, don't feel like you have to justify your guitars to me. (Believe me - I've played some shit :D ). I just like guitars to be treated seriously, not like props.

Then again, if you're gigging as opposed to recording, I suppose props have their place too.
i could not agree more guitars should be treated seriously ..... not as props .... maby i dont gig w/ the bich cuz i dont wanna look like a left over 80s poser ......... thats going to offend someone ...... sorry :eek:
 
TelePaul said:
Hey guys. I was wondering how form affects tone with guitars...i.e, do things like fret inlays affect tone, body inlays (like that PRS Dragon) bolt-neck vs set neck (though I think we've covered that), bosy size and shape (especially those pointy guitars) finish, extra routing....

Basically how much do looks effect tone?
I tend to look at it from several basic standpoints. Electric and Acoustic instruments being the big division. Small changes on an electric can make little or no difference. On an acoustic they can make a marked difference (I'd include hollow body archtops in this group) . Mainly for the reason Light has pointed out to do with the way the energy in the string is used. In essence the energy of the string on an electric is released into the body of the instrument more slowly than on an acoustic, or because of the decay rate thats the way we tend to hear it. What you hear when listening to an electric is the output of the pickup translating the string vibration and on an acoustic you hear the movement of the top and the bridge (mostly).

Many things influence the nature of the resulting sound, nearly all of it is somehow related to the mass and stiffness of the materials that the guitar is made of. It folows that if you somehow change the mass or stiffness of the instrument as a whole you change the acoustic properties of it. Whether that change can be measured or you can perceive it is another debate. It is by manipulating the relationship between mass and stiffness that most makers attempt to control the sound of their instruments. It's next to impossible to acurately predict the result but you can push the final sound in a certain direction.

Body size and shape on an acoustic or hollow body Archtop has a huge influence on the final sound, much more so than on electrics where I find the choice of timber has a bigger effect. Thats not to say that its not a big factor.

In a nutshell I guess that the guitar, electric or acoustic is much more than just the sum of its parts. Each of the parts somehow plays a part in its acoustic qualities. To try and sum up the whole relationship between those parts is next to impossible. Good makers learn by experience what effect different materials and changes in size shape etc have on their instruments and use their expereince to guide them.
 
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