For God's Sake... Why don't my recordings sound as good as U2???

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pisces7378

pisces7378

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Ha ha ha... maybe because their engineers and producers have years of experience, and millions in mullah.

But no seriously... I am dying here. I have had so many problems just getting any kind of descent sound period. And in the past few months, I have just been plugging away at it, recording anything and everything. Now, I finally have been getting "professional" sounding recordings. So I thought. I recently found out how to route my Mackie HR624 near field monitors so that I could just listen to normal CD's and MP3s through them. Up until now, I have only heard my recordings and playbacks through them.
I put on U2s' "Achtung Baby" and listened to 'Mysterious Ways'. God DAMN!!!! I mean, I am by no means a U2 fan. But that is one HELL of a recording. And now I am listening to The Black Crows', "Shake Your Money Maker", and the song 'She Talks to Angels'. The acoustic guitar on that track is so sweetly recorded. It feels like he is in the room with me.

My main problem is the following:
Drums
Acoustic Guitar
Lead Vocals

The bass guitar is a D.I. breeze. Backing vocals are no problem whatsoever. Piano, organ, and Fender Rhodes (elec. piano) are also a breeze since I have Logic Audio with the EXS24mkII and the EVP33, and EVB3 soft-inst.
I will try to focus this thread to the acoustic guitar. I have a BEAUTIFUL brand new Gibson SJ-200 Nashville Jumbo Flat-top acoustic guitar, which I bought strickly for capturing that sweet full Country Western acoustic strum sound. And it sounds great. I have two AKG C-451-B small diaphram mic's to use for drum overheads, and for stereo recording of the acoustic guitar. I set them up in a 45 degree X,Y position in front of the guitar. I have SONY MDR-7509 headphones which I use to minotor as I play the guitar tracks.
My live room and my control room are one and the same. I have a PC running Logic Audio Plat. v. 5.5.1 and my audio interface is a MOTU 828mkII. I have no special pre-amps. Just the two MIC/GUITAR 1&2 pre-amps that are in the MOTU. Which are supposed to be top notch silent, descent pre-amps. I record at 24/48kHz. I have the walls treated with Auralex foam which I got a local studio owner to come over and specially set up. The room isn't DEAD. We just took out as many flutter echos, and standing waves as possible. But it can't be a dead room problem. Especially since I am close micing the guitar.
Now, it doesn't sound HORRIBLE, the sound I am getting. It sounds good to me. But when I put in this Black Crows CD... it just sounds so much better.
The problem is... I have SO MANY effects and signal processing plug-ins... and I have basically no real idea how to use them properly. I can't hear, if the guitar needs EQ'ing or not. And if I think it does... do I use my: Fat EQ, DJ EQ, Parametric EQ, Silver EQ, High Pass, Low Pass, High Cut, Low Cut, plug-ins or what? Ok and If I have NO CLUE if it needs compression or not. When I patch in the compressor plug-in, it just seems to make everything so much louder and sensitive. I can hear the pick hitting the strings more, and finger glisses on the strings. Plus the whole thing is louder. I understand the ideaology behind compression. I have read literally dozens of books on recording. But all I know is... once I dial in the compresson or EQ or whatever... I can't tell anymore after about two minutes, if it sounded better before, or am I just adding signal processing and effects because it sounds better or just because I think I am supposed to twiddle with a lot of stuff?
And reverb??? I don't have the lovely Space Designer plug-in nor a fancy T.C. Electronic out board dedicated reverb rack unit. But I do have... Silver Verb, EnVerb, Platinum Verb, and about five other "verbs". But NONE of them really sound real. Or at least I can't make them sound real. I have no idea what is appropriate. I am not the best singer on Earth. Not HORRIBLE mind you. But I am no Poveratti. So I tend to wash out the vocals in too much reverb. But since Reverb makes anything sound deeper and fuller, I tend to dial it in on just about everything. And I have no real clue what Mix, Low-Cut, High-Cut, Room size, Room Shape, Stereo Spread, or any of that means. I mean, I know what it means. I am not stupid. And I have been at this with Logic and these plug-ins for over 4 and a half years now. But I am still getting MUCH less that desirable results.
Now, I know that I am not going to be able to invest only $10,000 and 4 1/2 years of teacherless bookreading and tinkering and expect to produce Abbey Road Studios results. They have millions in analog tape machines, Pro Tools, outboard everything, magical pre-amps built by hand by Neve himself, and $25,000 microphones. I have MOTU, a PC, Mackie HD624, $200 worth of acoustic foam, and an 88-weighted-key Studio Logic Fatar keyboard controller, two AKG C451B's a Rode NTK, several Shure SM57s and 58s. And a ton of guitar gear. (Marshall amps, Gibson electrics and acoustics, Fender Strats and Tele's).
How can I take my recordings of just a solo acoustic guitar to the next level without spending a single dime more as far as money is concerned? My budget is out of the question. I am spent in that dept. I need to learn how to make great stuff with the stuff that I have. What do you guys think?

Thanks for reading this grossely too long post.
 
Check your mic position--how close is close micing? Normally for stereo micing you'll be back a little bit, otherwise you're not getting stereo, you're getting something more like the different pickups on an electric. Not sure if that's what you want or not.

Also XY pair is usually 90-115 degrees, not 45 degrees.

Try using a single mic, move it around until you get a good tone, then set up the stereo pair there.
 
suggestion...

The most important piece of hardware is the preamp. forget mixer preamps. no top of the line mixer pre is ever going to replace a dedicated pre. 6 months ago I bought an Avalon U5, $500, a 100% class A preamp. EVERYTHING I put thru this sticks to the walls. words cannot describe it. There are other excellent brands out there Im sure. But, sadly, good pre's cost alot. There are lots of $100 pre's out there. Don't waste your time. Notice how I didn't say Don't waste your money. After all, money can be replaced. Spend $100, you will lose interest in amonth. Spend 500 or more, your interest will never wane. ok, enough philosophy already, geez.
 
pisces7378 said:
My main problem is the following:
Drums
Acoustic Guitar
Lead Vocals
Click to expand...

lol...ain't that like the entire track basically?
 
Teacher said:
lol...ain't that like the entire track basically?
Click to expand...

Not if you are into the kind of music I am into. There are also...

Bass
Backing Vocals
Piani
Organ
Harmonica
Aux Percussion
Electric Guitar Leads
Slide Guitar/Pedal Steel
Samples (i.e. aux "weird" sounds)
Any Kind of strings (viloin, cello etc.) I live in a huge college town (Athens, GA) and we always get students and faculty from the UGA music program to play live strings. One of the perks of being in a college town.

Anyway... there is SO MUCH more to making a track than the three things I named. In fact, the three things that I named, are probaboy to most poured over things people record. But in my opinion they are no more important than the most basic tambourine track.

And I am just having problems with them. So cut me some slack. :)
 
I feel your pain. I also record in a one-room space, though I have invested the time in contstructing bass traps and diffusers as well as the foam/carpet stuff for highs and high mids. I also record with a MOTU (896 HD) and PC. It sounds like you are on the right track, though. Here's how I would approach the problem:

Let's start with the drums, they are the least portable instrument you have. I think the sound of your drums and the room they are in is the key to the whole drum sound. I assume that you tune the drums "correctly" and are happy with the tom/snare sounds and that the cymbals mix well with your drums? If not, that's a good place to start. Heads, sticks and technique will all combine(among other things, of course) to get the sound you are looking for. Try different tom sizes and tunings until you are satisfied with the sound. Bass traps made a HUGE difference for me, but my room is 10X15.
So let's say you're satisfied with the sound of your drums in the room they are in. Start by dialing in your OH mics. Try different patterns until you have are satisfied with the result... This may take some time. I found that the OH mics were about 90% of my drum sound. I quit close micing when I realized that I got a more "natural" sound from 2 OH, Bass, and Snare mics than the whole 7 piece kit close mic'd. Of course, there's no accounting for taste.

Now, the acoustic guitar is awesome because you can record it just about anywhere; If your room is sucking the life out of your track try recording somewhere else. "She talks to Angels" is a beautiful track and breathes very nicely - I probably couldn't get close to reproducing that sound with the equipment that I have. But I can get the acoustic to "breathe" better just by experimenting with mic placement. I find that using a stereo mic technique on an acoustic that's part of a large arrangement including electric instruments in the song dosen't translate too well for me. I like a small condenser mic on the 12th fret and another near the sound hole. Sometimes a LDC a foot or so away to capture more of the body of the guitar. I try to always use new strings (on a steel string). light to moderate compression.

Lead vocals are a shot in the dark, as everybody sounds different and has different tastes. My voice is nasal and midrangey and likes a NT or a NT-1A (I know, I'm a cheap date). When I have recorded in professional studios I have tried some very fancy tube mics and expensive LDC mics and the NT just seems to do a better job of suppressing the "honk" in my voice. I also like to use doubling techniques and mic placement/vocal technique to fill out my background vocals. I hardly ever use reverb at all, as the room I'm in has a nice feel to it. Anyway, experiment with mic placement and try it in different parts of the room. You'll be suprised at the results. Try some different mics - maybe a SDC might work better for you, or even a dynamic.
Ultimately, don't worry about it too much. If you can talk, you can sing.

Reverb is usually my enemy. Most reverbs sound fake to me, as in, they don't sound like a room, or a hall, or a cave, or whatever. They sound like a really drastic, intrusive effect. Moreover, they stack. To my ear, reverbs place items back in the mix. The last thing I want to do is put distance on my lead vocal or snare. Again, this is probably just my taste, but if you are using reverb to make things "fuller" or "thicker" you are also smudging a lot of the characteristics of the sound you're affecting. I wouldn't want to see a rock band in a big church, but a choir would sound great.

I like delays a bit better. Way back in the mix, repeating in time or in a counterpoint.

Try "a/b"ing the dry and wet signals for comparison. Try listening to the mix at such a low volume that you can barely hear it; the reverbs will jump out at you if they are too thick.

Try not to eq if you don't have to - instead try to get the sound you want into the mic unaffected.

Sorry if the advice I've given you is didactic or patronizing, I don't know how experienced you are and I hope I haven't offended you.

By the way, it sounds like you've got good taste and equipment. Keep at it.

-W
 
For what you want, I'd say you need Ozone: http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/ .

All these bands not only have great recordings and engineers, they also have had their music go through a mastering house like the Lodge in NYC: http://www.thelodge.net/

However since you're on a budget, I'd recomend Ozone. It comes with a mastering guide and dithering guide as well.

You can get a good sound with your gear, it's a matter of knowing how to use it. If you're inserting things like compressors without knowing how to really use them properly - you'd be better off not using them at all. Remove plugins not in use too. Keep it as natural as you want it to sound. It's hard to get into all the details of a great recording here on this forum on one post.
 
t glyptic said:
For what you want, I'd say you need Ozone: http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/ .

All these bands not only have great recordings and engineers, they also have had their music go through a mastering house like the Lodge in NYC: http://www.thelodge.net/

However since you're on a budget, I'd recomend Ozone. It comes with a mastering guide and dithering guide as well.

You can get a good sound with your gear, it's a matter of knowing how to use it. If you're inserting things like compressors without knowing how to really use them properly - you'd be better off not using them at all. Remove plugins not in use too. Keep it as natural as you want it to sound. It's hard to get into all the details of a great recording here on this forum on one post.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but Ozone is not going to do Jack! if the tracks sound like ass to begin with.
 
That's true. But I haven't heard them... Perhaps we could hear them? Pisces, could you post a sample of your problems?
 
Yeah, I'm all about mastering, :rolleyes: but Ozone... Um... Yeah... Let me get back to you on that...
 
I've been very happy with my acoustic guitar tone with 2 Rode NT1's ...depending on the guitar I would place one about an inch awat from the sound box below the elbow of the strumming arm and the other a couple of inches away from the other hand. If yo need to EQ an acoustic then pretty much you're doing it wrong. ...and if you are placing the mics infront of the sound hole it's generally wrong anaway as that not the sound producing part of the guitar...it'd be like micing the sound hole of a snaredrum...

Drums I use triggers on kick and sometimes snare and toms... these also bleed into the overheads but it's never bothered me. SONAR comes with an audio to midi converter for triggers... Kick is what killed most of my earlier mixs (and I'm a drummer) and once I replaced it with triggers and learned ducking things cleared up really quick.

Lead vocals is usually a matter of actually being a good singer. Most singers arn't any good... they don't know the difference between head or chest voice and they have no stamina. Bad enunciation(sp?) is a problem too... plus mic choice... right now my favoite mic for my voice is an old VOM Hi-Z mic that I bought from a Music Go'Round for $5... yeah I can say it's vintage but it's still a piece of crap :)

Low noise studio enviroments help too :)
 
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