For all you old guys

Ronan said:
Baking tapes is standard practice for archival recording/restoration. I am really suprised they did not bake the tapes before putting up the first tape.

I wonder what kind of problems people will be having when then try and pull up a cuebase session stored on a usb hard drive 40 years from now.

Probably "who recorded this at 48k? We have to upsample to 384K!"

Seriously as one who has done his fair share of cooking 2" tapes, they probably did more damage by not baking them and shedding. Also after baking I've been told that the tapes are only good for approx another month and should be transferred immediately. I wonder what they used for this?
 
guitarfreak12 said:
Ok I don't know what forum to put his in. So if it belongs somewhere else, tell me.
I just have a general question/discussion, For all the guys who have been recording for more than 10-15 years. Before all this digital stuff started becoming more available.
Analog recording and digital back then from my understanding was very hard. Not that this stuff isn't hard now. but it required more patience, more creativity, and stamina. I think it was more of an art form than it is today. Just to get what you wanted down perfect, and not lose everything in the process seems like it can be very trying. Plus So much more talent seems to have been required. I say this, because I have tried some analog stuff, and I have been around analog before. And I could not record what I have recorded with the minimal amount of experience I have, if it wasn't for the ease of digital. Albums can be created in a fraction of the time it used to take. This is what I gathered anyway.
So my question is this, are any of you who learned how to record in the analog world, a little resenting of the ease and sometimes lack of respect that comes from the faster, easier less analog world. Do you get a little pissed off that someone can now just come along and do what ever he can think up with jest ten or twenty clicks of his mouse, when before it took you 40 hours of sleepless worry. And it really can only cost you the price of a small program, in come cases free (assuming you already have a computer) and a cheap mic and pre, and turn out some alright stuff, when it took you thousands of dollars and four times as much time, to turn out alright stuff. I know that I used to get pissed off when I grew up (being the oldest of 4) and saw my parents letting my siblings get away with stuff I never would have been able to do. That's a weird analogy, but it's all I got. I may be way off, and please don't think I respect guys who have only the digital experience any less, because you are still better than me at what you do. And I might have accidently started some bad thoughts in my way. But I have sort of a different respect for the guys who know a different world of recording, when it was really hard.


Analog vs. Digital aside.................

They used to chop tomatos by hand. One by one. Payed people by the hour to chop. They then invented a chopping machine. The machine chopped 100 tomatos an hour more than the person payed by the hour.......


Chopped tomatos cost nothing these days and tomato chopping professionals are now on unemployment. If you get my drift here, analog costs more $$$$ per hour than digital. Studio owners would rather make $$$ than sit around talking about how warm and friendly analog recording is.


Go talk to J. Paul Getty about how he should bring back the old gas station attendants so that people had a place to hang out and talk turkey. Getty loves self-serve because it saves $$$$.


Digital saves $$$$ period. That is why analog is gone in mass.
 
I should know better than to reply to someone who dug up a rusty old thread that's best left for the archives, but I couldn't let this one go. ;)

The analogy to chopped tomatoes or pumping gas is erroneous and perjoritive. The big difference is that chopping tomatoes or pumping gas is "unskilled labor". Audio engineering, regardless of whether it's in the analog or digital domain, requires a set of both inherant abilities and learned skills that by definition dictate that not only can everyone not be a good audio engineer, but no one can become one overnight.

The change to digital has not made everything easier, and in fact has made some things harder in some respects. It really comes out to be mostly a wash. For example, editing - as a process - has become much easier. No more precision cutting and splicing of tape and so forth. On the other hand, the ease with which such editing can be done make it much easier to make a "lazy edit", where the care in the editing choice is is not what it was back in the tape days, and the "uneducated edit", where those with no skill in choosing where and why to edit can go ahead and edit anyway.

That last point illustrates the real concern us "old timers" have with the new technology. Some call it a "resentment", but it's more than that, it's a real concern for the loss of the art of quality, in this case not in motorcycle maintenance but in audio engineering:

The truth is that the new digital tools have made many things easier for the audio engineer, but they have not made the skill of audio engineering any easier.

This board is daily bombarded with newbs who think the new digital tools are magical black boxes that will do the work for them automatically in much the way that machines will automatically chop tomatoes or dispense gasoline. They think a digital multiband compressor plugin is as easy to use as a microwave oven. Instead of a "popcorn" button, you have a "vocals" preset which will magically "cook" your vocal track for you so it comes out the other end sounding perfect. There was even a thread a couple of weeks ago whenre a guy thought that "mastering software" ment that you could dump your mix into one end and it would come out perfectly "mastered" on the other end. He got upset and wanted to blame the company that sold the software for false advertising when he found out that mastering was a skilled process that had to be manually orchestrated by someone who knew what they were doing regardless of the software or hardware that was used in the process.

Thanks to the digital revolution there are a greater number of quality audio engineering tools available to a greater number of people than ever before. That's not a bad thing. The bad thing is that the number of people who actually know how to properly use these tools has not increased proportionally. There are more and more high-skill tools falling into the hands of a greater number of untrained users. The great myth is that these tools are The Great Leveler Of The Playing Field, that they will allow these users to become virtual quality audio engineers without actually having to learn how to engineer. In fact, the opposite is true; giving these tools to the unwashed and setting their expectations thusly is little more than a recipe for tens of millions of CD-R drink coasters choking our landfills for the next few generations.

This is why those of us how have been at this for a while may come across as stuffy or "resentful". It's not because we are being replaced by machines, it's because we know that with the spread of the new machines comes a responsibility on our part to try and pass along the knowledge to fill the increasing skills gap, and are constantly meeting resistance from those who believe that the tools themselves make the engineering process as easy as pumping gas.

G.
 
Gee, I dunno. I think I have unique perspective on all this because...

I started recording in 1968 on a Revox open reel 4-tracker, using McIntosh preamps and Jensen triaxials for monitors. I was a snot-nosed kid who sang (badly) and played rhythm guitar (badly). My older brothers (lead and bass) owned the gear, which they scrounged and sold dope for and scavenged and begged and sometimes even built. Our left channel power amp was scavenged from the juke box of the local hotel the morning after it burned down. My bro was there at 5:00 AM 'cause he figured the transformers in that preamp would still be good. He was right. Our right channel power amp was from a Motorola family entertainment system that some clueless Nimrod tossed out on the dump because he had burned out a tube.
Mics were really tough. We couldn't afford condensers in those days, and our mic cabinet was scrounged from every flea market in the land.
Then- I didn't record anything from 1972, when I graduated from high school, until 1991, when my wife (God bless her) put me up to recording the album I had dreamed about for 30 years. So I joined Homerec.com and actually hired an Audio engineer as a consultant, and began plotting out room modification, mics, preamps, and recording systems. So in one neat step I went from tape editing with scotch tape and scissors to a Korg PXR4 Pandora, and a Roland VS1824CD! Well that said, here's my impressions:
1. Recording on digital is not easier than analog, it's harder, mostly because of the vigilance needed to prevent digital clipping. If a tape deck runs a little over 0db, no big deal. When Pro Tools runs over 0db, you are fucked- start again.

2. What *is* easier in digital is editing. God, we would have killed for seamless multitrack editing in 1968. Our Revox sure as hell didn't have an "undo" button, but we understood "redo" just fine. Take 37. I'll admit that there are lots of things I could do more easily in digital which I still do manually from force of habit, like fadeouts.

3. Modern equipment is simply more affordable and there are many more options. God, if you had handed us a Rode NTK in 1968, we would have creamed our jeans! Achieving a good signal to noise ratio is a hell of a lot easier. Even a DMP-3 compared to the preamps we used then is like comparing the space shuttle to a horse and buggy.

In the end, my experience dictates the way I use the equipment I have now. Frankly, I record just like I did in 1968 most of the time. I use no samples, no midi, no drum machines. I almost never comp tracks. On the other hand, I'll tell you what we didn't have in 1968- a compressor. Thank you, Lord, for the compressor. We couldn't press vinyl, so we thought the cassette was a Godsend. We could finally put music onto a format that someone could play on their home stereo. Also on that day, the big time record industry began to die. For a while, CD's brought it back. Once again, you needed a factory to produce the music format people were using. Then CD-R, DVD-R, and MP3 finished that. I don't think the genie can be put back in the bottle now.

So am I pissed off that home recording is easier today than 1968? Hell no. Because of it, I finally got to make the damn album I wanted to make all my life. Times change. In 1969, I wanted to be a rich rock & roll star, and get laid a lot. In 2002, I just wanted to make an album that wouldn't sound like a vanity project by a washed up ex-rocker wannabe.

Oddly enough, my fondest memories of analog recording aren't of recording music, but recording the State Police surveillance units who were watching us, with a parabolic microphone. They watched us (we were the hippies), we recorded them. We got more useful information out of their big mouths than they ever got by watching us.-Richie
 
Great post, Rich. Brings back a lot of memories. :) Good ol' Macintosh. :D

If you're ever in Chicago, let me know, I'd love to get together and swap stories over a few beers. ;)

G.
 
guitarfreak12 said:
Do you get a little pissed off that someone can now just come along and do what ever he can think up with jest ten or twenty clicks of his mouse, when before it took you 40 hours of sleepless worry.

No, because the big difference between engineers (major label to home recording) isn't in the equipment you have access to, but the SKILL that you have gained.

Trust me, analog was a pain in the butt unless you had a big budget (which I didn't). I love the fact that small studios can make big sounds with a little care, a little time, a little equipment and a lot of skill.
 
I'm fairly new to the recording world, and for the most part have done all of my editing in the digital world. I have ALOT of respect for people who still use tape, and a lot of resepct for all the engineers that came before me.

Right now i'm using mostly an SSL 4040 G+ console with API 512c outboard Pre's, or a Trident 80B into a Pro Tools HD Accel 3 system. I've had experience on digital boards, and so far, nothing sounds quite like an SSL/Neve/Trident.

I'd love to be able to dabble with tape more, but my budget just won't allow for it (yet). I assisted on a project that was all tape a while ago, and I don't think my fingers have hurt that bad after one day of editing (not to mention the cuts and gouges in my fingers from the razor blade).
 
I don't think that digital recording has hindered creativity at all. In my opinion it only matters who is doing it, not how they are doing it. What I do think is that digital has enabled alot of people to do things that 15 years ago would never have really had the menas (and possibly even the desire) to do it. Now anyone can run down to their local guitar center and for less than $1000 get the equipment to make whatever it is that they make. 15 and 20 years ago just about every commercially released album was almost guaranteed to have been done on a expensive setup, with a certain level of quality, and most likely by engineers and producers who had EXPERIENCE. Some were better than others, but they all had some experience at least. Now there are a lot more people getting involved who have a much smaller undertanding of the whole process. When you combine that lack of experience with cheaper equipment and an influx of bands that also have less experience, you end up with a larger circulation of lesser product.

On the other side of the coin, you also have a very large group of people who are up and coming due to the availability of resources. I may have only been engineering for 10 years, but I know that the process for me has changed considerably since I started. When I started on an 8 track analog deck with limited tracking and mixdown options, I had to really think about how I was going to do things to achieve the results I wanted. I had to think about track layout, when and what to bounce together, or even if to bounce at all. I had to think about where I was going to place compressors and such due to limited inserts and aux sends etc... In this digital age, laying 12 drum tracks out is no problem. Plugins offer unlimited use of specific tools and even the ability to due presets or preconfigured setups. I think a lot of people working in the software environment just slap a whole string of plugins on channels without really thinking about why they need to do that, and even about how to setup each individual one. This kind of workflow definately damages the creative process in my opinion. Things like people asking what settings to set their preamp on for a specific type of vocal are a great example. The truth is that there is no real right and wrong, just what sounds good and what doesn't. The problem is that too many people now have so many tools that they fall into habits and forget to experiment, or forget to try a track without any processing. I wonder if they would really use 4 or 5 inserts on a channel if that meant sacrificing a compressor or delay or whatever on a different track. Or if they had to actually climb behind a track and link all of those units manually since most analog consoles only have 1 insert point per channel.

I know that recording digitally has resulted in some short cuts for me in my recording process. Some are good, and some are bad. Its kind of a fact of life I guess. Do I still care as much about the projects that I do now though? Absolutely. Do I do a lot of cut and paste? Nope. I still prefer to have individual takes and to get the tracks right. As an engineer and pseudo producer I hate having to do edits. I don't like copy and paste choruses and typically will only do that kind of stuff if it is necessary. That usually means that the band is making nme do it, or that there is no real logistical possibility of getting the musician to relay the track that needed fixing.

I also don't believe that digital in and of itself has a cold sound. What I do believe though is that cheap preamps and EQ's with cheap mics, cheap converters and a lack of experience definately results in a less than optimal sound. But, I have no problems with the way either digital or tape sounds when it is executed properly. Basically, tape sounds like tape, and digital sounds like digital. They are distinctly different sounds that each come with it's own benefits and its own issues. Kind of like how a Marshall sounds different than a Fender amp. Does that make one better than the other? Nope. Just different and when used properly achieves the results that you are after.
 
No static from xstatic

xstatic said:
When I started on an 8 track analog deck with limited tracking and mixdown options, I had to really think about how I was going to do things to achieve the results I wanted. I had to think about track layout, when and what to bounce together, or even if to bounce at all. I had to think about where I was going to place compressors and such due to limited inserts and aux sends etc... In this digital age, laying 12 drum tracks out is no problem. Plugins offer unlimited use of specific tools and even the ability to due presets or preconfigured setups. I think a lot of people working in the software environment just slap a whole string of plugins on channels without really thinking about why they need to do that, and even about how to setup each individual one. This kind of workflow definately damages the creative process in my opinion.
Very well put!

I would never advocate going back to the days of more limitations, and am not going to be an old fart talking about the good old days when we had to walk to school 10 miles in the snow barefoot and backwards and liked it.

What I will say is that such gear limitations actually have advantages in that they force you to think, to plan, and to actually learn how to get the most out of what gear you have, how that gear actually works, and how learned technique and skills make all the difference in the world.

The danger today is that too many people think that gear makes up for any lack of knowledge, technique and ability (combined, known as skill). It doesn't. In fact, it calls for even more knowledge because the gear is even more sophisticated. 30 years ago we never had to know how to use compressors, stereo effects, digital reverbs, etc. Parametric EQs were very rare on the home studio level and spectrum analyzers were rack mount boxes that cost more than the average entire home studio did. Now that stuff pretty much considered standard equipment for even the most basic of home studios, meaning the average home studio engineer has even more equipment (and more sophisticated equipment at that) to learn how to use than ever before. That makes things easier? Certainly not.

We may have had only rocks and spears 30 years ago, and today any audio general can go out and buy cruise missles, armored tanks and aircraft carriers. But if the owner of all that stuff knows nothing about logistics, strategy and tactics, they will lose every battle they join.

Todays digital audio gear doesn't do the job of the engineer any more than tanks, planes and boats do the job of the general. And it's speed, sophistiction and variety makes both the general's and the engineer's jobs that much more sophisticated.

G.
 
lpdeluxe said:
...I have recorded a 17-track song and the singer's out of tune. He wrote the song and arranged it, there ain't no way we're going to find another person to sing it. Bring on the Auto-Tune!

why would you use autotune on that song anyway? i would have mixed it the way it was sung. the singer would realize that he cant sing and either quit, take singing lessons, or continue singing off key.

this is why i do not like digital recording attitude of "fixing it in the mix". it doesnt put emphasis on great musicianship and getting a good performance.
 
This brings up a whole new problem. Sometimes "fixing it in the mix" is a necessity. My goal with every client is to make their stuff sound as good as I possibly can. Sometimes that may mean auto tune. There has been a few bands over the years that I was really amazed at what I was able to do. I agree that nothing could ever replace talent and good musicianship, but sometimes those just aren't options. There are many things that can cause this problem such as lack of talent, poor source signals, lack of budget (to pay for enough of my time to do it better) etc... In the end, sometimes I have to do things that i know would have been better given different circumstances, but that may not be a real possibility.

Take your car for example. Say you don't change your oil for three years and your car develops problems as a result. Your mechanic won't refuse to fix it and givce you a lecture instead on what you should do. He will just fix it and send you the bill. A good mechanic however would also explain to you why your car broke down and give you the information necessary so that you can avoid having that same problem again. Sometimes engineering is like that. Sometimes we have to just understand that the musician is there, and they are only going to be able to do what it is that they are able to do. Sure maybe I think the singer or guitar player needs some lessons. Does that mean that I should stop the session and tell them to not come back for two years so that they can get some lessons, practice more etc...? It really isn't my right or responsibility to do that to them. What is within my bounds however is to find a nice way to communicate with them. To do everything in my knowledge to assist them in doing the best that they can within a reasonable set of logistic limitations. If it means going home for a few days and practicing a part for several hours so that three days later they can do a better job, than that seems reasonable to me. To purposely not do something to "teach the a lesson", that to me seems improper and just plain bad business. I always try and tell my clients what it is I like about what they are doing. I also try and find a constructive and nice way of telling them what they could work on to make it better for both them and for me.
 
It's just that....

The biggest difference I see is that nowadays everything is handed to you, presets on plug-ins, automating parameters on plug-ins, etc. When you have limited tools to work with , it forces you to be more creative in general. Necessity being the Mother of invention and all that. Noobs now have too many choices right in front of them for everything, not only can that be daunting, it stifles creativity. Also I miss the days of playing the board during mixing, 3 sets of hands turning pots at specific times, if you blow it, you have to start all over. Mixing was a performance in itself. I loved it for the most part. Your challenges make you grow. Maybe just the grumblings of a cranky old man that was dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age. I love the new stuff now, but they do make me nostalgic for the old days.
 
I haven't been recording for more than 10 years but I think it's difficult to get things done digitally. All sorts of reasons why.

I do resent the dudes these days who sit at a computer from the word go...and they make a song...beats and all that. There's some great songs like that but it sort of shits me that there are so many people, kids probably, who are into the beats and techno and looping stuff. Some people can make great music like that, it just seems on the net anyway every man and his dog are trying to make fat beats, trance and techno stuff. And as home music makers a lot of these guys are churning out song after song with no experience of actual recording. They use sampled sounds and all that.

So that aspect of the digital field pisses me off sometimes. Something to do with dance/ techno type music makes me kind of resent these button pushers.

At the end of the day though I don't really care
 
I used to use a reel to reel which was a pain to use...then in the 80's I bought a second hand Fostex x15 for like $400...Had a ton of fun recording with it.

fostexx15.jpg


the fostex died in the 80's...I stopped recording.

I came in pretty late in the game in regards to using a computer for recording...I never really owned a computer untill around 2005 and then strated recording again on the puter in 2007.

Actually I started recording in 2007 on a korg D4...then I would take the recorded tracks and tansfer them to the computer through usb which led me to Software DAW's...once I started using the recording software I basically sold the korg D4 and record using the computer now.


I now use Reaper to record with

Long story short...Its great that one can use the computer to record with these days compared to years ago however there seems to be a lot more people recording and writing music because of it.


The good...I can record what I always wanted to
The bad...So can everyone else

I dont consider myself an old guy however I just turned 40 this year so I guess Im an old dude now.
 
What's that rotting flesh smell?

:laughings:

Some of you all may be generalizing a bit. The only time I used a preset plugin was when I didn't know how to use a compressor. I'm a young guy and I've never experienced the pre-digital world. However, not all of us sit at home and make beats. I do agree that sure, the accessisbility of great tools today may dilute the world of recording egineers but those of us who actually care are going to learn to use them just like the guys in the old world.

It's like guitar hero, and I use that comparison alot. Thousands of people these days play that and get a "I'm playing guitar!" rush. Now there are videos on you Youtube of kids "shredding" on guitar hero with expert skill. But anyone of us who have a passion for guitar playing, or music recording, are going to take time to learn how it is done.

I spent the six months I was practicing drums for my album to research drum recording techniques. I tried different placements and techniques over and over and over again. Sure, my drum tracks don't sound amazing but atleast I'm learning with the right attitude. Atleast I used acoustic drums, and atleast I didnt use ridiculous EQ boosts/cuts (except on the kick) or anything to fix it in the mix. I didn't use beat detector or elastic audio or any of that Protools-itis shit. I made sure I was able to play my songs, set up a click, and played to the song in MIDI format. Now I'm researching guitar recording techniques as I practice my guitar tracks.

I think the world of DAW's actually might boost creativity, or atleast increase the ability to see your ideas come to life. There are things we can do with automation that would have been impossible back in the day. So if you go into your work with the right attitude it makes all the difference. People who sit at the computer and use all the tools and presets handed to them are just hobbyists and if it weren't for the internet we'd never even hear anything they've done. That's really the only thing that's changed.
 
Um....In case you guys didn't get the "rotten flesh" and "necro-posting" references.......This thread is 6 YEARS OLD!!!
 
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